It boggles the mind to think that our military has performed so well in so many conflicts over the past century with such incompetent officer leadership!
.A Confusing Path to MARSOC
- Thread starter Gurahiyi
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It boggles the mind to think that our military has performed so well in so many conflicts over the past century with such incompetent officer leadership!
I think I understand what you meant, but I suggest you choose your words more carefully in the future. There are number of officers on this board, including a certain Marine officer, who managed to turn out OK without enlisting first.
One's source of commission or prior service status are, as far as I can tell after more than 21 years in the military, in no way correlated with successful officership in the long run. One could be successful as an officer after prior enlisted service, or one might end up a complete failure. Good enlisted troops don't always make good officers, and vice versa.
If you want to be enlisted, go be enlisted. If you want to be an officer, go be an officer. Or enlist first and THEN become an officer. But don't badmouth (or say things that might be interpreted that way) any part of any service... especially when you haven't yet earned that right.
My advice to you would be that if you have the opportunity to go to college, take it. Not everybody gets the chance to go to college after high school. I didn't. Go to college, kick ass in college, and then think about the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps will give you the knowledge and training to be an officer. If you've got brains, guts, and genuinely care about the men you command, you'll be a good officer. Like @Teufel has told you, it's a character thing. Are you honest? Do you have integrity? Are you an honorable person?
My feeling about anybody in a leadership position is, you either got it or you don't. And if you got it, your men will follow you up shit alley any day of the week.
Dust34
Verified Military
The first Officer I had the opportunity to serve with (for some essay, I was a grunt) was just as fresh to the Marine Corps as my piers and I. (He was not prior enlisted) He was a damn good Platoon commander, he payed attention, asked questions when he did not know something, he made mistakes and he learned from those mistakes. As I had stated he did not have any experience prior and was a great Officer.
The second Officer I had the opportunity to serve with was a Mustang (Prior Enlisted) he was a little more hands on, and always lead by example. A great leader and a prior Enlisted Grunt.
Granted they had differences in their approaches but it did not take away from their effectiveness as leaders. As stated above if your going to go Enlisted or Officer choose one and do it. If your dead set on doing it the way you currently imagine (does not appear that way as you still seem conflicted) then do it that way, just remember that shit happens. Its a long road ahead either direction you choose. Good luck.
The second Officer I had the opportunity to serve with was a Mustang (Prior Enlisted) he was a little more hands on, and always lead by example. A great leader and a prior Enlisted Grunt.
Granted they had differences in their approaches but it did not take away from their effectiveness as leaders. As stated above if your going to go Enlisted or Officer choose one and do it. If your dead set on doing it the way you currently imagine (does not appear that way as you still seem conflicted) then do it that way, just remember that shit happens. Its a long road ahead either direction you choose. Good luck.
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Red Flag 1
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I had the opportunity to see the enlisted to officer change go very badly for an extended family member. He was an enlisted reserve USMC L/Cpl Combat Enginer while in undergrad. After undergrad, he went through OCS, then right into TBS coming out as a 2Lt with a flying slot. He really missed being a Marine, down on the ground in all the grunge and dirt.
He pretty much self eleminated from UPT in Pensacola and opted for a slot as a Combat Enginer in the Second Marine Division. He was back at the very place he wanted to be, now as an O-1. He spoke often of how close he was with the guys under him. They really respected him for having been prior enlisted. He said he would do anything to protect his men, and they would do the same for him. His CO was a 0-4 selecte and he spent a lot of time butting heads with his CO, on behalf of his men. He never made the change over to officer from enlisted. His identity was still with the enlisted ranks, and it cost him his career. The kid had military school from highschool thru his BS. Brains, and he loved being a Marine, but he never made the change over and was passed over for O-3.
Shit humans make shit officers, prior service is not a magic bullet for competence.
You misunderstand me sir. I do not mean that such officers are at all common, simply that they do exist. I would assume that even as they exist in the US Military, then logically they may well occur in the armed forces of every nationality. I did not intend to cause offense, and apologize profusely if such is the case.
I understand. I apologize for causing offense sir, I know full well I haven't earned any right to pass judgement. That was not my intention by any means. Such a slip up in wording will not occur again.
Thank you for your advice. My interest in college is largely based on finances. Academically speaking, I have done fairly well for myself. 3.87 HS GPA (unweighted), 32 ACT, distinguished graduation plan (Texas), and 3.84 college GPA (dual-enrollment), multiple AP and honors classes, etc. Both GPAs would be 4.0 if it were not for foreign language classes, in which I am admittedly a poor student (Latin, Spanish, and Russian). I am competing for several full ride scholarships right now, and am waiting to see how they turn out. If I were to win one, I would almost certainly attend college first. If not, the matter of attending college is up for debate.
In terms of character, I do not think one might accurately judge him or herself at all times. However, based on the letters of recommendation I have received for my college applications, I would think that I can answer all three questions with "yes". I am certain, if nothing else, that I would have my men's best interests at heart.
I am confused to some degree. While career wise it is obviously a poor choice, would defending your men from the higher ups be considered a poor choice in general? I was under the impression the priorities of an officer are only the mission and the men. If disagreeing with the CO was necessary to meet those two priorities, then one should do so regardless of the personal repercussions which might follow. Of course I am inexperienced in these matters so if I am wrong, please correct me.
Red Flag 1
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I am a bit out of my lane here. I have never been a Marine, and I have never been enlisted. My observation is just that, and it was pretty clear to me what was going on with this lad. I think standing up for your men is a good trait for commanders to have. The plan can go wrong when you continually butt heads with your CO, for any reason. There are other ways to get things done for your men.
My $.02.
I am so glad that others have had a chance to chime in before I saw your responses.
You sound like the guy who gets high & tights months before going to bootcamp.
Had you made that little remark in person about getting men killed - I'd have put you on the fucking ground.
I don't care how you meant it.
You sound like the guy who gets high & tights months before going to bootcamp.
Had you made that little remark in person about getting men killed - I'd have put you on the fucking ground.
I don't care how you meant it.
A good leader can retain the respect of his men and his superiors. The two are not mutually exclusive. There doesn't have to be a conflict. I think @Red Flag 1 meant that the Marine in his example tried to win the respect of his men by siding with them more than he should have. An officer cannot be a union shop leader...nor should he try to win a popularity contest. He must retain his authority.
Red Flag 1
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Nicely said.
You're wrong. It's not about "defending your men from higher-ups," it's about obeying and carrying out orders. You seem to be under the impression that conflict is common between junior officers and their superiors. Read my signature line, a quote from my company commander, a man I had great respect for...but he wasn't our buddy, he wasn't some kind of advocate. We knew he cared about his men because he wouldn't ask us to do anything he wouldn't do himself. He made sure his men had the gear and support they needed to conduct their mission and kill the enemy. Forget all this shit about "defending your men from higher-ups." You lead your men.
Thank you for that clarification.
Noted. Thank you for that clarification. As I have said, I do not by any means claim to have extensive knowledge of military matters. I will adjust my thinking accordingly per the information I'm given. I would note in my defense, I said the two priorities are the "mission and the men". I understand that when given a direct order, you are expected to follow it regardless of your personal opinion, and complete the mission at any cost.
Understood. I look forward to proving you wrong in regards to bootcamp.
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