Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

I thought about it for a while, and I can only come up with one semi-plausible way that this wasn't a straight up "life-in-prison" murder, and it's not a good one.

Off camera, several minutes before the footage we've all seen, the victim actually DOES commit a burglary. Or some other crime for which a reasonable person would use lethal force to effect a citizen's arrest. In this scenario, the victim is not "jogging," he's fleeing the scene. After a pursuit, which we don't see in this footage, he knows he's caught and goes for the gun, which is present but not pointed at him. On top of the earlier crime(s) that's assault, and attempted larceny, from which a reasonable person can be expected to use lethal force to protect themselves. And right about that time is when the footage we see, starts.

I have no evidence to suggest that's what happened. I'm just trying to come up with other reasons a prosecutor may have elected to not have the two men involved tossed in jail earlier.

I also want to re-iterate my earlier statement that even if there was an earlier burglary, as alleged, the alleged perpetrator shouldn't have had to die for it.

Sometimes things are exactly the way they first appear. However, I've seen too many times how people will seize on first reports--which are almost always incomplete, if not flatout wrong--and use them to support their biases and their politics. I've also seen how people will selectively edit a video to do the same, or make something about race that simply isn't.

...and I've also seen too many examples of legitimate racism involving, or leading to, murder. And that might be exactly what happened here. Right now it sure looks that way.

In my mind, we still don't have enough evidence to make an informed decision based on a totality of the facts, because all of the facts haven't emerged. I think arresting the two alleged shooters was a good call, but there's still a lot here that needs to get unpacked. I'm going to continue to be interested in this case, but I'm going to wait for more evidence to emerge before I take a solid position.
 
Excellent article published today. The authors key points are located about half way through under the "My take" section:

"As a law enforcement officer, I have to practice objectivity. On most calls for service, I am not present to see the allegations presented by a civilian regarding an assault or similar allegation against another person. Objectivity comes naturally to me by practice.

I want you, the reader, to practice your best to be objective with me. Put aside the forced “two white men kill an unarmed black man” racism narrative that is being pushed by the media and lets consider the facts at hand. I will address those issues later.

(1) Legalities of the Incident

The Legalities of the incident are first and foremost important factors to this tragedy is to be judged. The two overarching legal issues here are that of a citizens arrest (a) and self defense (b).

(a) Given that the actions by the McMichaels – who determined to locate and detain Arbery as a suspect in a series of burglaries – to try and affect an arrest. The two men essentially instigate the entirety of the incident. Therefore must determine first if the citizen arrest itself was justifiable.

There are two key issues with the McMichael’s claims of a citizen’s arrest. First, at best, the incident at hand was tantamount to a trespassing incident. No burglary took place on this date and time and therefore the “citizen arrest” in this instance is unlawful (see law above) as the crime committed was no longer taking place.

Now, as a police officer, there are times where I must detained people on the basis of suspicion of a crime. This is a lawful act in my duties. And sometimes we are wrong. Police officers can detain and arrest in felonies, misdemeanors, and infractions (only if present and witnessed by the officer).

The statue above does not allow citizens to affect an arrest for anyone for a crime below a misdemeanor.

Now lets suggest the McMichael’s thought a burglary had just taken place. Is their platform solid? Even in law enforcement, officers must be careful about the action of detaining or arresting someone based on the crime at hand. We call it, “having a solid platform.” It isn’t worth the fight (literally) at the present moment or later in court (via civil lawsuits) to justify why you had to subdue the jaywalker with flurry of baton strikes. It’s not worth the battle. Now had the same use of force taken place against someone wanted for murder, then the battle is worthwhile.

The call to 911 made by someone among the McMichael’s party does nothing to defend the mindset that they believed a burglary had just taken place. At best it suggest suspicion of prior incidents.

This therefore violates another key portion of the legal statue that states the incident must be committed “in his presence or immediate knowledge of.” A “stale” felony (one that occurred at a different time) does not warrant a civilian to act to arrest anyone.

Furthermore, it is difficult to suggest that Arbery was attempting to flee. Arbery can be seen jogging steadily toward the McMichael’s truck (which was parked ahead of him waiting) – not running away from him. Had Arbery desired to get away, he could easily flee toward the wooded side yards of the streets he ran on – not jog through the street in plain view.

(b) Self-defense.

Georgia is a “stand your ground” State. In such states, individuals who are on the receiving end of unlawful violence need not back down before defending themselves with reasonable force. Such a removal of a need to stand down is similar to the right afforded to law enforcement (CPC 835) but does not extend them the duty to place themselves in such situations with authority. Gregory being a former law enforcement official lost similar authority and rights when he retired.

Other states that do not have “stand your ground” laws limit the scope of self defense to homes or specified areas. While those states don’t explicitly suggest the right to self-defense outside certain areas, it is understood to be both reasonable and implied that one may defense themselves to a violent attack.

Deadly force is also applicable if the person reasonably believes that the attacker poses a threat of great bodily injury or death. The law does note that (a) you cannot be the aggressor and (b) you cannot be involved in the crime."
Many have attacked “stand your ground” laws especially in the wake of Trayvon Martin’s death at the hand of Andrew Zimmerman. But the legalities behind the law are not an issue – what is an issue is the perversion of the law in the minds of vigilantes like Zimmerman and in this case the McMichael’s.

In fact the “stand your ground law” gave Arbery the right to fight with all his might and try and disarm Travis.

The McMichael’s did not have a legal basis to detain or arrest Arbery and therefore were indeed the aggressors in this situation. Also consider the video. While obscured and very short in length, the initial shot happens almost immediately upon contact between Arbery and Travis. I would venture to judge that there was hardly any time to suggest that Arbery posed any grave danger to Travis, especially given that Travis was armed and Arbery was not. This, therefore, makes Travis the aggressor.

At minimum, the case should be forward by the DA as voluntary manslaughter – if not murder. In my opinion, especially with the lack of standing on either legal issue above, a charge for murder is most accurate."
 
Really not looking good for the prosecutor's office: DA allegedly refused to allow police to make arrests in shooting death of jogger Ahmaud Abery

BRUNSWICK — Two Glynn County commissioners say District Attorney Jackie Johnson’s office refused to allow Glynn police to make arrests immediately after the Feb. 23 shooting death of Ahmaud Abery.


Travis McMichael, 34, and his father Greg McMichael, 64, were arrested Thursday, more than two months after the fatal shooting.


“The police at the scene went to her, saying they were ready to arrest both of them. These were the police at the scene who had done the investigation,” Commissioner Allen Booker, who has spoken with police, told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “She shut them down to protect her friend McMichael.”



Greg McMichael, now retired, once worked as an investigator in Johnson’s office.


Commissioner Peter Murphy, who also said he spoke directly to Glynn County police about the incident, said officers at the scene concluded they had probable cause to make arrests and contacted Johnson’s office to inform the prosecutor of their decision.


“They were told not to make the arrest,” Murphy said.

The rest is at the link.
 
Excellent article published today. The authors key points are located about half way through under the "My take" section:

I don't disagree with the material points made by the author, but that article is a grammatical and factual nightmare.

E.g. I don't know who Andrew Zimmerman is, but George Zimmerman is the name of the man who killed Trayvon Martin.

The statute he quotes toward the top of the article doesn't place the cutoff for an arrest by a private person at the division between misdemeanor and infraction - it explicitly requires that the crime be a felony. While we can split the hairs, yes that includes "crimes below a misdemeanor". But the point being made is whether or not the arrest was in compliance with the Georgia statue, which has nothing to do with "below a misdemeanor". It's an unnecessary deviation from what's written and seems to cloud a fairly bright line in the law requiring that a felony be witnessed by the arresting individual.

Again, I agree with many of the points he makes - I just think he needs to do a better job of supporting them.
 
Doesn't matter if he stole anything or not. That doesn't give you the right to shoot them unless they were a threat to your life, which stealing construction tools is not. We have a judicial system for a reason.
Like the article said, trespass at most. Only he knows what he was doing there but I have a fair amount of new construction where I live. A number of most neighbors have consistently walked the sites while under construction.
 
Doesn't matter if he stole anything or not. That doesn't give you the right to shoot them unless they were a threat to your life, which stealing construction tools is not. We have a judicial system for a reason.

I think that's a bit of an oversimplification of the situation, brother. Stealing construction tools is not a threat to one's life, in most circumstances. However, assaulting someone and trying to take their property, especially when that property is a loaded shotgun--if that's what happened--makes a completely different story.

Additionally, citizen's arrest is a legitimate part of our judicial system... again, if that's what happened.

The facts here are still very fuzzy. I couldn't tell from the photos that the same person on camera in the construction site was the same person who was gunned down a few minutes later. Not only is the person not identifiable, there is no clear date/time stamp. This image could have been of anyone, at any date. However, if it is the victim, it changes the "just minding his own business out for a jog" narrative a bit and could strengthen the perpetrator's story that the victim was acting suspiciously and that they were attempting to act within the law.
 

Saw the video. At most we're talking Criminal Trespass on Land. That is a misdemeanor not only EVERYWHERE. But also in Georgia. And if he committed theft or damage under $500 value it is still a misdemeanor. Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-7-21 | FindLaw

In addition to that, having been a stupid kid on runs (in another life) I've walked up to construction sites because I was curious. My dad worked in "New Home" construction and used to take me on job sites and I'd walk around.
 
I think that's a bit of an oversimplification of the situation, brother. Stealing construction tools is not a threat to one's life, in most circumstances. However, assaulting someone and trying to take their property, especially when that property is a loaded shotgun--if that's what happened--makes a completely different story.

Additionally, citizen's arrest is a legitimate part of our judicial system... again, if that's what happened.

The facts here are still very fuzzy. I couldn't tell from the photos that the same person on camera in the construction site was the same person who was gunned down a few minutes later. Not only is the person not identifiable, there is no clear date/time stamp. This image could have been of anyone, at any date. However, if it is the victim, it changes the "just minding his own business out for a jog" narrative a bit and could strengthen the perpetrator's story that the victim was acting suspiciously and that they were attempting to act within the law.
I think that's a bit of an oversimplification of the situation, brother. Stealing construction tools is not a threat to one's life, in most circumstances. However, assaulting someone and trying to take their property, especially when that property is a loaded shotgun--if that's what happened--makes a completely different story.

Additionally, citizen's arrest is a legitimate part of our judicial system... again, if that's what happened.

The facts here are still very fuzzy. I couldn't tell from the photos that the same person on camera in the construction site was the same person who was gunned down a few minutes later. Not only is the person not identifiable, there is no clear date/time stamp. This image could have been of anyone, at any date. However, if it is the victim, it changes the "just minding his own business out for a jog" narrative a bit and could strengthen the perpetrator's story that the victim was acting suspiciously and that they were attempting to act within the law.

The defense will argue that Arbery assaulted McMicheal when he attempted to take the shotgun, and the prosecution will argue Arbery was acting within his right to defend himself.
According to a former US attorney quoted in this article

Under Georgia code, Moore says a citizen can use force if they fear for their life, but they cannot create a confrontation themselves and then claim self defense after harming someone. Especially if they did not witness a crime take place.

We've also touched on in this thread how the citizen's arrest law in Georgia are only applicable for felony crimes, not misdemeanors. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I'll bet my ass any prosecutor would argue that the elder McMichael, as a former DA investigator of over 20 years, likely knew that a trespassing charge (or even theft) would not rise to the level of crime acceptable for a citizen's arrest.

I won't be surprised if the son takes a manslaughter plea as opposed to a trial.
 
The defense will argue that Arbery assaulted McMicheal when he attempted to take the shotgun, and the prosecution will argue Arbery was acting within his right to defend himself.
According to a former US attorney quoted in this article



We've also touched on in this thread how the citizen's arrest law in Georgia are only applicable for felony crimes, not misdemeanors. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I'll bet my ass any prosecutor would argue that the elder McMichael, as a former DA investigator of over 20 years, likely knew that a trespassing charge (or even theft) would not rise to the level of crime acceptable for a citizen's arrest.

I won't be surprised if the son takes a manslaughter plea as opposed to a trial.

Well stated.

However, burglary is a felony in Georgia, so a citizen's arrest would be lawful. What I'm not 100% clear on is the distinction about "immediate knowledge" in the context of a citizen's arrest.

It's not clear to me from the video that the shooter was trying to apprehend the victim, as the action took place in from of the truck and out of view of the camera. He may have simply confronted him.

Without additional evidence, I think the defense can convincingly argue that the defendants had "immediate knowledge" that a felony crime had taken place, that they suspected that the victim was the perpetrator of several other crimes in the area, that the victim was a criminal known to the elder defendant, that when the victim came around the truck, he attacked the younger defendant, who then acted lawfully to defend himself.

In short, without additional evidence, I think these guys walk on murder charges, and can probably plead out even manslaughter to a significantly lesser charge.

This is a messed up situation, and I wish more people would have made better choices.
 
Well stated.

However, burglary is a felony in Georgia, so a citizen's arrest would be lawful. What I'm not 100% clear on is the distinction about "immediate knowledge" in the context of a citizen's arrest.

It's not clear to me from the video that the shooter was trying to apprehend the victim, as the action took place in from of the truck and out of view of the camera. He may have simply confronted him.

Without additional evidence, I think the defense can convincingly argue that the defendants had "immediate knowledge" that a felony crime had taken place, that they suspected that the victim was the perpetrator of several other crimes in the area, that the victim was a criminal known to the elder defendant, that when the victim came around the truck, he attacked the younger defendant, who then acted lawfully to defend himself.

In short, without additional evidence, I think these guys walk on murder charges, and can probably plead out even manslaughter to a significantly lesser charge.

This is a messed up situation, and I wish more people would have made better choices.

They did not witness a burglary. They didn't even witness the trespass. They saw a jogger that matched the description, they were inside their own house when they called 9-11.

Where do you come up with the bolded statement? That is not only not a fact supported by anything linked in this thread (ETA, see below)
, but it is very frustrating for me to even read that. If your position is devil's advocate and from a defense position please state so. This is seriously angering me.

ETA:
Georgia man charged with killing Ahmaud Arbery previously investigated him

It took me a bit, but I have a hard time with anyone being able to truly ID someone they investigated seven years earlier at a distance. So we have the criminal record in the article from the NY Post (there is no other article linked in this thread that provided any evidence to support the above statement), so my anger is significantly less. But the hill you have to climb to be able to say you recognized a kid from seven years ago now jogging in your neighborhood is now your reason for killing him? Cmon.

What we have seen from this case is several possible cases of prosecutorial misconduct.
 
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They did not witness a burglary. They didn't even witness the trespass. They saw a jogger that matched the description, they were inside their own house when they called 9-11.

Where do you come up with the bolded statement? That is not only not a fact, but it is very frustrating for me to even read that. If your position is devil's advocate and from a defense position please state so. This is seriously angering me.

Georgia man charged with killing Ahmaud Arbery previously investigated him

It took me a bit, but I have a hard time with anyone being able to truly ID someone they investigated seven years earlier at a distance. So we have the criminal record in the article from the NY Post (there is no other article linked in this thread that provided any evidence to support the above statement), so my anger is significantly less. But the hill you have to climb to be able to say you recognized a kid from seven years ago now jogging in your neighborhood is now your reason for killing him? Cmon.

What we have seen from this case is several possible cases of prosecutorial misconduct.

I was just about to tag you and see what your opinion was regarding the video and possible burglary.

To be fair to @Marauder06 I did start the "layman's idea of what a course of action may look like" conversation, so he is bouncing off of me a bit with his bolded statement.
 
So now let's look at statutes in Georgia:

2010 Georgia Code TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS, ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS. § 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest
O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest


A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

So let's say he actually saw Arbery exit the home under construction. As I posted above that is a misdemeanor, therefore no grounds for arrest.

Here are the Stand Your Grown Laws in Georgia:
Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-3-21


(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23 , a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(b) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in subsection (a) of this Code section if he:
(1) Initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
(2) Is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
(3) Was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so and the other, notwithstanding, continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force.
(c) Any rule, regulation, or policy of any agency of the state or any ordinance, resolution, rule, regulation, or policy of any county, municipality, or other political subdivision of the state which is in conflict with this Code section shall be null, void, and of no force and effect.
(d) In a prosecution for murder or manslaughter, if a defendant raises as a defense a justification provided by subsection (a) of this Code section, the defendant, in order to establish the defendant's reasonable belief that the use of force or deadly force was immediately necessary, may be permitted to offer:
(1) Relevant evidence that the defendant had been the victim of acts of family violence or child abuse committed by the deceased, as such acts are described in Code Sections 19-13-1 and 19-15-1 , respectively; and
(2) Relevant expert testimony regarding the condition of the mind of the defendant at the time of the offense, including those relevant facts and circumstances relating to the family violence or child abuse that are the bases of the expert's opinion.

Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-3-24

(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real property other than a habitation or personal property:
(1) Lawfully in his possession;
(2) Lawfully in the possession of a member of his immediate family; or
(3) Belonging to a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.
(b) The use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to prevent trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real property other than a habitation or personal property is not justified unless the person using such force reasonably believes that it is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Wherein does it allow a person to take off in hot pursuit of an individual that is running/jogging down the street and then use deadly force?

Use of deadly force is legal, but the DA would need to take up the case and force the defendant's counsel to prove that in front of a jury. The statutes allow a private individual to not retreat, but that requires the threat or assumed threat of deadly force. The only deadly force that was in this is the two defendants rolling out like their dodge pick up is a Toyota Hilux and they're jihadis with a dude standing in the truck bed ready spray and pray.

ETA:
Is there any evidence of a burglary on that day?

There is evidence of a Trespass, but not of a Burglary. Trespass of land in Georgia, combined with theft or damage under $500 is a misdemeanor.

The video here shows him entering the home under construction: New video in Ahmaud Arbery case offers a view of what happened moments before the deadly shooting

Here is video where it shows him poking around in the house: GBI reviewing additional video in case of Ahmaud Arbery

Again, we're talking what can easily be argued as simple curiosity.
 
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They did not witness a burglary. They didn't even witness the trespass. They saw a jogger that matched the description, they were inside their own house when they called 9-11.

Where do you come up with the bolded statement? That is not only not a fact supported by anything linked in this thread (ETA, see below)
, but it is very frustrating for me to even read that. If your position is devil's advocate and from a defense position please state so. This is seriously angering me.

ETA:
Georgia man charged with killing Ahmaud Arbery previously investigated him

It took me a bit, but I have a hard time with anyone being able to truly ID someone they investigated seven years earlier at a distance. So we have the criminal record in the article from the NY Post (there is no other article linked in this thread that provided any evidence to support the above statement), so my anger is significantly less. But the hill you have to climb to be able to say you recognized a kid from seven years ago now jogging in your neighborhood is now your reason for killing him? Cmon.

What we have seen from this case is several possible cases of prosecutorial misconduct.

I don't really care that this angers you. That was not my intent, but I don't control how you allow yourself to react to cognitive dissonance. So be angry or not, it's not going to affect what I post.

The fact that so many people are letting emotion override reason, especially after we've had case after case after case of people grossly over-reacting to a biased and incomplete version of events only to see a completely different picture emerge once the facts come in, underscores the need for this kind of patience, introspection, and examination.

Everything not explicitly marked as my opinion in the portion of the my statement that you bolded is supported at least in part by the limited facts currently made public in this case. Here, I'll make it easy for you:

the defendants had "immediate knowledge" that a felony crime had taken place, that they suspected that the victim was the perpetrator of several other crimes in the area, that the victim was a criminal (who was) known to the elder defendant, that when the victim came around the truck, he attacked the younger defendant, who then acted lawfully to defend himself.

Note that I said that this is what a defense attorney might say. At no time did I say that I think this is what happened, or that this is what I think the outcome should be in the trial. And in case you missed my earlier post where I made it very clear that it is too early for me to personally take a position on this, and that I think the arrests were the right call, check out post 23. And if you think I'm unsympathetic to the bottom-line fact that at the end of the day a young man lost his life, I invite you to check out my earlier posts in this thread.

Additionally, you've presented a grotesque straw man with the statement "you recognized a kid from seven years ago now jogging in your neighborhood is now your reason for killing him." To begin with, the elder defendant, the one with the law enforcement background, is not the one who shot the victim; the younger one did. And the younger one only fired after after the victim tried to wrestle the gun away from him. Your statement is an emotionally-driven non-sequitur.

Look, here's the bottom line: if discussing this topic is going to "anger" you, and if you're going to contort what little facts there are into a ridiculous straw man, then perhaps it is best for you not to engage me on this topic. You're only going to end up angrier, and probably embarrassed. If you want to go back and delete that post and have a rational and dispassionate discussion about it, I'm down for that.
 
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