Airlines, airplanes and other kerfuffles

[ThunderHorse]

As for training, where else should they train that is practical (nearby), that can closely mimic the conditions of DC (background lights and at least one river, preferably more, with no overhead lines), and lacks the distraction of an airport? Does something like that exist and they use this, and the mishap a/c was on a check ride following a training syllabus?

First I question the purpose of those night flights. As mentioned in the WSJ article, Army GOs have clearly become lazy fucks and just rely on Gold Tops to take them everywhere instead of driving. All these dudes have assigned drivers, they can sit in traffic like everyone else. 12th Aviation Battalion should not be doing routine hops for GOs like HMX-1 does for the president and vice president.

I'm not an aviator but I don't see the purpose of doing that just to do that.

I think there might be confusion regarding her working in the White House.

For general awareness of the board, there's about 2,600 service members in the White House Military Office. (More than I'd have thought.)

Duties of the Social Aides, from wiki:



Reads like on of the hundreds of ceremonial duties the military partakes in.

Remember when Trump took over in 2016 and we found out the NSC had a staff of 400? Well 2,600 seems like a fuck tonne. DOGE where you at?

 

[Marauder06]

I think there might be confusion regarding her working in the White House.

For general awareness of the board, there's about 2,600 service members in the White House Military Office. (More than I'd have thought.)

Duties of the Social Aides, from wiki:



Reads like on of the hundreds of ceremonial duties the military partakes in.

Roger. It makes no difference to me if any of the soldiers in the helicopter were in the aide program or not. It's a legit thing that people can do, I just don't like it. Kind of similar to the Army's World Class Athlete program. I don't think it's a net positive for us, but I would never judge someone for taking advantage of it. I'm sure I've taken advantage of plenty of things the Army offered me that others would not like.

The Army's own website on the program appears to indicate that the commitment is far bigger than what you posted from Wikipedia:

The White House Social Aide program is a volunteer additional duty. Those interested must include an 0-6 level endorsement from their chain of command. Social aides are expected to work an average of five to six events a month during the duty day, evenings and occasional weekends.

...five or six events A MONTH? And "average" means it could be more.

Yeah that adds up quickly, especially if it's during the duty day. Maybe people need to spend more time doing their days jobs, than this.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

…sigh…

 

[Topkick]

Kind of similar to the Army's World Class Athlete program.

When I was jr enlisted, I was exempt from duty for 3 months per year playing for the traveling post baseball team. It was peacetime and a fantastic opportunity, but it probably wasn't the best use of time and money for the Army. Lol.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Being a "social aide" always struck me as as sketchy. You have to be young and attractive, and your "additional duty" means several times a month, and maybe even more frequently, you're taking time off of the job you're supposed to be doing for the Army and partying with powerful people. I'm sure it's great for the individual--look at the names of the people who have been social aides--but I'm not sure it's a great use of the Army's time and the People's money.

Imma be honest. That sounds like pimping and prostitution, but with more steps.

 

[Cookie_]

Remember when Trump took over in 2016 and we found out the NSC had a staff of 400? Well 2,600 seems like a fuck tonne. DOGE where you at?

It looks like roughly most the personnel are those that the Comms/Transportation(land+air) arms of the White House. A good chunk are also those that work Camp David.
I know basically nothing about Comms/airlift, so i couldn't tell you if it's more personnel than needed or not.

Roger. It makes no difference to me if any of the soldiers in the helicopter were in the aide program or not. It's a legit thing that people can do, I just don't like it. Kind of similar to the Army's World Class Athlete program. I don't think it's a net positive for us, but I would never judge someone for taking advantage of it. I'm sure I've taken advantage of plenty of things the Army offered me that others would not like.

Probably would be an unpopular opinion across the big Army, but I think things like WCAP should be for COMPO 2/3 soldiers.
They can still fulfill the requirements of IDT/AT in ways someone active cannot. One of our cooks at the QM PLT is in WCAP and still does her job on drill weekends.

 

[Blizzard]

As stated earlier, I'm not all about everyone going over every detail in someone's life to validate some conspiracy they've drawn up.

This was a terrible and tragic accident. There are clearly reasons (as in multiple) this accident occurred and NTSB will get to those but running down a DEI or some other similar rabbit hole is wrong.

Aviation can be incredibly unforgiving. If you talk to enough people who fly and they're being honest, you'll find that they all have a story where something didn't go right, for whatever reason, and they're fortunate there wasn't a more serious outcome. One of the interesting things about the aviation community in general, is the desire to learn from past mistakes. It's why AARs, debrief, and accident reports are so important. We're all human, we all make errors. Unfortunately, sometimes those errors carry larger consequences.

 

[ThunderHorse]

When I was jr enlisted, I was exempt from duty for 3 months per year playing for the traveling post baseball team. It was peacetime and a fantastic opportunity, but it probably wasn't the best use of time and money for the Army. Lol.

Garrison Sports used to be a big part of the Army experience and culture. Achieving assignment to WCAP when it first started when through a long trials process for Track and Wrestling guys specifically. The shooters had long competition shoots. Pre-GWOT the Army had a legit All-Army Rugby program that has since been destroyed as on-post sports aren't really a thing from a serious perspective. Battalion and Company Level sports are a way to engage Soldiers and keep them in shape when you're in a peace time rotation. It's something I've discussed on this board a few times as it relates to how the Army experience has/was degraded before my time. It's a tradition that should still exist but does not. @digrar mentions how they did things when he was a Digger.

Anyways, that's tangential to this this thread. But the Army and the rest of the service experiences used to be way cooler before the advent of television.

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

WCAP would be a way better use of the military's money than most honor guard ceremonies and the shit we see on tick'toks...

 

[TLDR20]

Garrison Sports used to be a big part of the Army experience and culture. Achieving assignment to WCAP when it first started when through a long trials process for Track and Wrestling guys specifically. The shooters had long competition shoots. Pre-GWOT the Army had a legit All-Army Rugby program that has since been destroyed as on-post sports aren't really a thing from a serious perspective. Battalion and Company Level sports are a way to engage Soldiers and keep them in shape when you're in a peace time rotation. It's something I've discussed on this board a few times as it relates to how the Army experience has/was degraded before my time. It's a tradition that should still exist but does not. @digrar mentions how they did things when he was a Digger.

Anyways, that's tangential to this this thread. But the Army and the rest of the service experiences used to be way cooler before the advent of television.

When I was in the 18D course we used to play ultimate Frisbee on Fridays. Was extremely violent. Good times.

 

[TLDR20]

As stated earlier, I'm not all about everyone going over every detail in someone's life to validate some conspiracy they've drawn up.

This was a terrible and tragic accident. There are clearly reasons (as in multiple) this accident occurred and NTSB will get to those but running down a DEI or some other similar rabbit hole is wrong.

Aviation can be incredibly unforgiving. If you talk to enough people who fly and they're being honest, you'll find that they all have a story where something didn't go right, for whatever reason, and they're fortunate there wasn't a more serious outcome. One of the interesting things about the aviation community in general, is the desire to learn from past mistakes. It's why AARs, debrief, and accident reports are so important. We're all human, we all make errors. Unfortunately, sometimes those errors carry larger consequences.

There is always a chain of events leading to catastrophe. It always takes just one chain removal to stop the event. Also anyone who has been in or around aviation long enough knows someone who has died, accidents happen all the time. The airlines are safe because the safety protocols are written in blood.

 

[Devildoc]

First I question the purpose of those night flights. As mentioned in the WSJ article, Army GOs have clearly become lazy fucks and just rely on Gold Tops to take them everywhere instead of driving. All these dudes have assigned drivers, they can sit in traffic like everyone else. 12th Aviation Battalion should not be doing routine hops for GOs like HMX-1 does for the president and vice president.

I'm not an aviator but I don't see the purpose of doing that just to do that.

As I understand it, it's not "just" VIP flights as an aerial taxi service, they are VIP transport with a continuity of government mission. Also, as I understand, because that is a mission that is 24/7, frequently fly at night.

 

[ThunderHorse]

I lost a kid from my company at VMI, he was piloting a Osprey during Talisman Saber. They had a catastrophic failure and piloted that thing so hard 23 of the Marines were able to get out of the bird. Him, his co-pilot, and his crew chief did not survive. He was a great kid when I knew him. Sounds like Lobach was as well.

As I understand it, it's not "just" VIP flights as an aerial taxi service, they are VIP transport with a continuity of government mission. Also, as I understand, because that is a mission that is 24/7, frequently fly at night.

Sure, they have a mission, but they are being overly used as an aerial taxi.

It also ferries top military and other officials in and around the nation’s capital in helicopters known as “gold tops” because they are specially painted to highlight their mission. Gold tops have become in effect a high-end air taxi service for Washington VIPs, taking passengers to bases and other locations in Pennsylvania, Virginia and Maryland and in some cases, beyond.

The use of helicopters around Washington has become so frequent that the sound of the whirling blades has become ubiquitous at the Pentagon. Defense officials can look out their windows daily and see them landing and taking off, sometimes in pairs.

Army helicopters sometimes ferry two- and three-star generals from Fort Belvoir to the Pentagon, shaving 45 minutes or more off a trip by car, said Andrew Logan, a Washington resident who co-founded Helicopters of DC, a website that tracks helicopter operations.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/nation...d-as-taxi-service-to-washington-vips-7002ffc8

These meetings can be done in Teams, don't need to be in person. OR, plan accordingly and drive. Belvoir is not far. Meade is not far.

I have 11 "maneuver" units, I cannot see all of them all the time, most of the communication is done via phone or google meet. The idea that everything is so important it has to be done in person is an inefficient approach. Now, Battlefield Circulation is important and I do that around 4 times per year. But if I flew to every single one during the bulk of our operations I would get nothing done.

 

[AWP]

...five or six events A MONTH? And "average" means it could be more.

Yeah that adds up quickly, especially if it's during the duty day. Maybe people need to spend more time doing their days jobs, than this.

Which is a good gig for an aviator since they aren't flying every day. Every squadron I've heard of, regardless of the branch, has more crews than airframes. If you aren't flying you're probably a spare, but working collateral duties as well. You won't be in a seat or a spare every day, so it makes sense if you staffed a program with folks in that position.

It's probably a program where the manning needs to be better evaluated. Also look at legislative aide positions. How many O-4's and O-5's are in that role? I know it is one of several roles that fulfill a check mark to have for a squadron or ship command in the Navy.

 

[Muppet]

By the grace of God, this child is surviving.

 

[Devildoc]

I lost a kid from my company at VMI, he was piloting a Osprey during Talisman Saber. They had a catastrophic failure and piloted that thing so hard 23 of the Marines were able to get out of the bird. Him, his co-pilot, and his crew chief did not survive. He was a great kid when I knew him. Sounds like Lobach was as well.



Sure, they have a mission, but they are being overly used as an aerial taxi.



https://www.wsj.com/politics/nation...d-as-taxi-service-to-washington-vips-7002ffc8

These meetings can be done in Teams, don't need to be in person. OR, plan accordingly and drive. Belvoir is not far. Meade is not far.

I have 11 "maneuver" units, I cannot see all of them all the time, most of the communication is done via phone or google meet. The idea that everything is so important it has to be done in person is an inefficient approach. Now, Battlefield Circulation is important and I do that around 4 times per year. But if I flew to every single one during the bulk of our operations I would get nothing done.

If the COG mission has been so misused by FOGOs to take advantage of the asset as a taxi, then their leadership needs to address that. But that does not negate the need for the training.

A horrible, tragic accident, and by definition all accidents are preventable. It's also the first time this has happened. Investigate it, figure it out, fix it, and resume. I know I've been out of uniform for a minute, but the military is not, or should not be, a risk-adverse organization.

 

[Cookie_]

By the grace of God, this child is surviving.

The family is lucky as hell there was a cop nearby who made the call to immediately transport him to the hospital. That action alone gave him a chance.

 

[GOTWA]

People want something, or someone, to blame. This will be yet another case study of the normalization of risk and I'd put money on this being a multitude of things that finally came together to form the perfect storm.

 

[Muppet]

The family is lucky as hell there was a cop nearby who made the call to immediately transport him to the hospital. That action alone gave him a chance.

Yeah, though, it's a mixed emotion between cops and us medics. Sometimes, they stretch the wrong folks. If that kid stopped breathing, then what? Some times, they just roll without doing any tx. It's controversial to say the least.

 

[Devildoc]

People want something, or someone, to blame. This will be yet another case study of the normalization of risk and I'd put money on this being a multitude of things that finally came together to form the perfect storm.

There's actually quite a bit of data on this, that is called 'drift'. Subtly ignoring simple safety guards and assuming more risk because nothing bad has happened before, you keep drifting further away from what you're supposed to do and eventually something bad is going to happen.