Another Run on Ammo: DHS's New 900 Million Round Purchase

[TLDR20]

Serious question JBS how is it unethical to leverage a crises with an agenda? That seems to me like the best time to do so. No sarcasm here serious question.

 

[JBS]

Serious question JBS how is it unethical to leverage a crises with an agenda? That seems to me like the best time to do so. No sarcasm here serious question.

There are about 20 different ways I can go with this, but I'll keep it to a few of the more persuasive reasons:

1. In a democratic republic, the country is governed by consent of the people. Pushing legislation through any means other than broad majority consent is counter to that principle. Outside of that restrictive and straightforward channel, we are not being governed with our consent, but rather we are being governed regardless of our consent. It's supposed to be hard to pass new laws. This mechanism of inherent friction was built into our system- into our Constitution- to restrain the ability of government to become oppressive and overbearing. The entire concept was to make life for the common man easy to live, to facilitate pursuing basic happiness in life, not to spend significant amounts of time complying with checklists, regulatory minutiae, and burdensome requirements to engage in ordinary life activities.
2. Governing by crisis is inherently dishonest. It capitalizes on fear, pushing regulation that would not be desirable under conditions where there was no fear present. Indeed, the very mechanism used in "leveraging" fear is to overstate and highlight that fear; you don't leverage the fear unless you publicize the reasons people should be afraid. Is this how you want to be governed? Threatened with all kinds of terrible things unless you do what the government tells you? It may seem like an oversimplification, but at it's core, it's a means used by governments in different forms for centuries. Under the old Roman Catholic Empire, it was going to hell that kept you in check. In forms of Islam, if you don't follow the tenets you are dismembered, or executed. If you convert, you're killed. Governance by fear is, in its extreme forms, nothing more than a kind of oppression.
3. As we have seen in cases in modern American history, there have been Presidents and other politicians who have actively considered creating their own crisis in order to push legislation that would not normally be desirable by the people- again defeating the principle of governance by consent. These types of manufactured crisis are always the logical end result of governing by crisis. If your thought process agrees with the idea of small political groups pushing laws unwanted by the people by leveraging crisis, then how far away - ideologically- are you from either creating or permitting a crisis to occur when you need the impetus to push your agenda?

It is especially for reason number three that any free population should resist governance by fear/crisis and instead demand that laws and regulation follow the proper channels before being implemented- through the slow and rigorous process that affords the issue proper scrutiny, so that cooler heads may prevail.

 

[Yoshi]

In 2005, pre-Iraq surge and all that, the DoD used 1.3 billion rounds of 5.56 and 81 million rounds of 9mm. Iraq, train-ups, Basic, annual qualifications, etc...1.3 billion rounds of 5.56 alone.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05687.pdf

I had no idea nitrocellulose was so important. Also, how dependent the U.S. was(is?) on other countries to create something so essential as ammunition.

 

[RustyShackleford]

If she did claim it, she'd be correct. Americans have stockpiled and purchased weapons and ammo at what some would call an alarming rate, according to every stat I've come across on the topic. I've heard the same joke from gun dealers and pawn brokers over and over again, "Obama is the best gun salesman the firearms industry has ever had". But I would rather live in a situation where the government fears the people, rather than a situation where the people fear the government. Thanks to the agenda of those in power, we are living in a time of unprecedented lack of trust between the government and the people.

Consider: there are TV shows now that have made "prepping" something just shy of mainstream. And although the focus of these shows is usually something about preparing for catastrophes and disasters, there are also frequent shows about how to deal with martial law, etc. What does it say about the average state of mind of the American people when you can't even buy ammo in Wal Mart or Bass Pro Shops anymore? This is a state of distrust. And on the government side, it's no better. We have seen a steady trickle of reports and various kinds of memos and alerts, warning Law Enforcement of the dangers posed by US military veterans, people flying the Gadsen flag, people buying military surplus gear, and anyone who talks just a little too much about the US Constitution. I mean, what kind of Twilight Zone BS is that? We've also seen the SPLC grow ever more influential in many law enforcement circles and frequently referring to the dangers posed by white conservative gun owners.

Yet despite the culprit for today's tension clearly being the state of mistrust between government and the population, the response of this Administration has been to do things like pursue further gun control, redact government reports on the numbers of ammo and equipment acquisitions, and to speak in hushed tones about how they will pursue influencing domestic policy outside of overt channels. I refer to when The President was quoted as saying he would pursue gun control "under the radar", as well as his complete embrace of radical Leftist political strategy. Namely, the unethical idea of leveraging and capitalizing on whatever domestic crisis happens to emerge in order to advance the agenda:

A couple months back I made a statement at work about how this administration has inadvertantly succeeded in putting more guns in the hands of citizens than any other administration that I can think of. Not that it is a bad thing, but what bothers me are the numbers of people who are buying guns and have no idea how to use them and fail to put forth any effort to do so. I foresee a large number of legally purchased firearms finding their way from legal ownership to illegal in the next five or so years due to some folks lack of willing to be responsible gun owners.

 

[x SF med]

I can tell you the effect on me.... rifle rounds $33/box and pistol rounds $25/box... at a gun show.

 

[Yoshi]

I can tell you the effect on me.... rifle rounds $33/box and pistol rounds $25/box... at a gun show.

Yea, at a gun show earlier this month 45 FMJ was going for $40 per 50 round box and that is Winchester regular. Show me a person that gets ammo at that price and I will show you a fool.

 

[ShadowSpear]

 

[pardus]

A couple months back I made a statement at work about how this administration has inadvertantly succeeded in putting more guns in the hands of citizens than any other administration that I can think of. Not that it is a bad thing, but what bothers me are the numbers of people who are buying guns and have no idea how to use them and fail to put forth any effort to do so. I foresee a large number of legally purchased firearms finding their way from legal ownership to illegal in the next five or so years due to some folks lack of willing to be responsible gun owners.

When shit was crazy in NY with the preban buy up, I witnessed a lot of these idiots.

Customer. "I want to buy an AR15!"

Gun Guy. "OK, which one?"

C "That one"

G "Sure"

C "What does it do?"

G "Huh?"

C "What can I shoot with it?"

G "Uhh, what do you want it for?"

C "Personal defense, CQB, long range target shooting, duck hunting, moose hunting, rodent control, and the zombie apocalypse."

G "Give me $2500 and GTFO"

C "How dare you! I'm thinking about becoming a member of the NRA!"

G "Ch-Ching!"

 

[Salt USMC]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the facts regarding the ammo deal (and the fabled 2,700 MRAPs that were reportedly purchased) seem to have come up while the discussion was on going, but were never posted for some reason.

BLUF: DHS purchased a few hundred million rounds over a 5-year timeline, and only got 32 MRAPs (from the DoD). The 2,700 MRAP order was for the Marine Corps.

Ammo: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/04/04/The-Great-DHS-Ammunition-Stockpile-Myth (I can't believe I'm linking to a freaking Breitbart article, but it conclusively puts this topic to bed)
MRAPs: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art..._Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks
http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland-security-serving-warrants-mrap-2013-3

 

[TLDR20]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the facts regarding the ammo deal (and the fabled 2,700 MRAPs that were reportedly purchased) seem to have come up while the discussion was on going, but were never posted for some reason.

BLUF: DHS purchased a few hundred million rounds over a 5-year timeline, and only got 32 MRAPs (from the DoD). The 2,700 MRAP order was for the Marine Corps.

Ammo: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/04/04/The-Great-DHS-Ammunition-Stockpile-Myth (I can't believe I'm linking to a freaking Breitbart article, but it conclusively puts this topic to bed)
MRAPs: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art..._Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks
http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland-security-serving-warrants-mrap-2013-3

Good to put that one to bed.

 

[TheSiatonist]

Apologies but I just saw this photo -- it was hilarious as hell it made me remember this thread.

 

[Ranger Psych]

When shit was crazy in NY with the preban buy up, I witnessed a lot of these idiots.

Customer. "I want to buy an AR15!"

Gun Guy. "OK, which one?"

C "That one"

G "Sure"

C "What does it do?"

G "Huh?"

C "What can I shoot with it?"

G "Uhh, what do you want it for?"

C "Personal defense, CQB, long range target shooting, duck hunting, moose hunting, rodent control, and the zombie apocalypse."

G "Give me $2500 and GTFO"

C "How dare you! I'm thinking about becoming a member of the NRA!"

G "Ch-Ching!"

Thing is, the preban buyup made sense there. How's that 7 rounds treating you?

 

[JBS]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the facts regarding the ammo deal (and the fabled 2,700 MRAPs that were reportedly purchased) seem to have come up while the discussion was on going, but were never posted for some reason.

BLUF: DHS purchased a few hundred million rounds over a 5-year timeline, and only got 32 MRAPs (from the DoD). The 2,700 MRAP order was for the Marine Corps.

Ammo: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/04/04/The-Great-DHS-Ammunition-Stockpile-Myth (I can't believe I'm linking to a freaking Breitbart article, but it conclusively puts this topic to bed)
MRAPs: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art..._Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks
http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland-security-serving-warrants-mrap-2013-3

Ever since Breitbart turned up dead at age 43 of a heart attack and his media operations taken over by Shapiro, they've taken a left-turn politically in the company's views and broken zero news damaging to the Left. Breitbart is no longer what it was and their "definitive debunking" of anything is worthless.

We're talking about an organization that once forced the resignation of Shirley Sherrod after the ACORN scandal (which subsequently led to the defunding of that once supremely influential organization). Breitbart died of a sudden heart attack a day or two after meeting with Sheriff Joe Arpaio where they were discussing how best to approach the Obama Birth Certificate fraud investigation. When Breitbart turned up dead and Shapiro moved in, the FIRST thing he (Shapiro) did is cut ALL Breitbart media ties to the Arpaio Birth Certificate investigation and make all sorts of statements about how this matter would no longer be pursued and that there was no evidence of fraud, despite Andrew Brietbart's conviction that there was. With his death, Andrew Breitbart's life work of exposing the most obscenely corrupt and complicated conspiracies came to an abrupt and permanent end.

Shapiro has been really good at mocking the views and suspicions of concerned citizens as "quackery" and "tin foil hattery". Every modern American generation has had their Shapiros. In the 1950's and 60's, they came out of the woodwork and tell the American people how silly a notion it would be for the government to do any such heinous thing as infect black US Army soldiers with syphilis and gonorrhea on purpose, or experiment with LSD on civilians... and many other ignoble and misguided (and criminal) behaviors.

Breitbart media is nothing like what it once was.

I don't get what's so funny about mocking concerned citizens. Stockpiling ammo is happening, and so is the militarization of domestic police forces in this country.

I don't know what fucking bubble people are living in but this nation has changed-and for the worse- and no amount of mocking and jokes is going to change that. I'm old enough to remember life before things got this bad.

 

[pardus]

Ever since Breitbart turned up dead at age 43 of a heart attack and his media operations taken over by Shapiro, they've taken a left-turn politically in the company's views and broken zero news damaging to the Left. Breitbart is no longer what it was and their "definitive debunking" of anything is worthless.

We're talking about an organization that once forced the resignation of Shirley Sherrod after the ACORN scandal (which subsequently led to the defunding of that once supremely influential organization). Breitbart died of a sudden heart attack a day or two after meeting with Sheriff Joe Arpaio where they were discussing how best to approach the Obama Birth Certificate fraud investigation. When Breitbart turned up dead and Shapiro moved in, the FIRST thing he (Shapiro) did is cut ALL Breitbart media ties to the Arpaio Birth Certificate investigation and make all sorts of statements about how this matter would no longer be pursued and that there was no evidence of fraud, despite Andrew Brietbart's conviction that there was. With his death, Andrew Breitbart's life work of exposing the most obscenely corrupt and complicated conspiracies came to an abrupt and permanent end.

Shapiro has been really good at mocking the views and suspicions of concerned citizens as "quackery" and "tin foil hattery". Every modern American generation has had their Shapiros. In the 1950's and 60's, they came out of the woodwork and tell the American people how silly a notion it would be for the government to do any such heinous thing as infect black US Army soldiers with syphilis and gonorrhea on purpose, or experiment with LSD on civilians... and many other ignoble and misguided (and criminal) behaviors.

Breitbart media is nothing like what it once was.

I don't get what's so funny about mocking concerned citizens. Stockpiling ammo is happening, and so is the militarization of domestic police forces in this country.

I don't know what fucking bubble people are living in but this nation has changed-and for the worse- and no amount of mocking and jokes is going to change that. I'm old enough to remember life before things got this bad.

Who's mocking?



After everything that's been said on this ammo stockpiling subject it seems that this was all overblown from the start.

 

[JBS]

There's been a general mocking tone in the public, in the corporately owned media, and also on this board about this topic but many posts are now long gone. This wasn't the only thread on this and related subjects and frankly it doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

It's a fact that this country has royally fucked up in many ways and particularly in abuses of various people. Not just blacks, but also native Americans, and also American citizens of Japanes ancestry who were placed in internment camps. Can you imagine MP's coming to your door and hauling you off to a camp? And your wife and kids if you are married? ... and these kinds of things weren't carried out in ancient times. This is modern times, modern history. There are veterans who are still alive who were part of 40 year long experiments. In 1997 President Clinton apologized to the 8 remaining Tuskeegee Syphillis testing victims... we're talking their wives were infected, their kids born with congenital conditions. So you understand what this means, it means there were highly educated people- doctors of medicine, researchers, facilitators- all keeping quiet and denying that any kind of abuse was happening. This isn't ancient history and it isn't an isolated incident. And all the while there were a mixture of well meaning and naive people and those who were just flatly ignorant telling these soldiers a wide variety of bullshit as they suffered through this horrendous injustice. More than likely they could have also been mocked as tin fokl hatters if they suggested they were targeted or in any way implicated the government in their conditions.

If we can learn anything from these men as well as all the other victims of our government when it has on occasion lost it's moorings, it is that the best thing we can do as evolved and adjusted citizens is to look on any hint or even suggestion of abuse or excess or danger to the civilian population with prejudice and a jaundiced eye, until such time as that branch, wing, element or department under suspicion has completely and transparently exonerated itself. My nation's government has earned my mistrust. Every single bit of scrutiny the DHS received over these rumors was VERY FUCKING WELL deserved and those who added to the ambiguity and mistrust while hiding behind their official status by redacting and classifying the relevant documents should be fired.

Any time there's a rumor or hint of abuse I fully expect any of my fellow citizens who have a pair to be ready to do whatever it takes to demand answers from public servants and not give a damn about mockery. I don't owe anyone an apology for my view and anyone who is determined to prevent history from repeating itself in our America should be the same way.

 

[pardus]

What has that got to do with ammo? I asked about the mocking on this thread r.e. the ammo (which is what this thread is about).

Most of us know a government cannot be trusted 100%, that's why we have the USA and it's Constitution today.
That said, this is not a conspiracy site and it's not going to become one. I would ask you to dial it down a bit please @JBS

 

[JBS]

Understood. What all of the above has to do with the ammo stockpiling rumors is that there are perfectly valid reasons for citizens to ask questions about such things and that's how this thread started. Then, when this issue entered into the national discourse, how did the DHS respond to concerned citizens and media coverage? "Don't ask questions", followed by redaction and classification of documents they have no business redacting or classifying. The amount of ammo burnt in a year by the Department of Agriculture and the Coast Guard are not matters of national security. This is our money paying for it and we have a right to ask wtf is going on.

All it took was for posts like those made in this thread by @Freefalling and others (who were able to find real numbers) to find out the truth about just how big a deal this issue is. To date, not a single government official has come forward to clear all of this up, or answer to the citizenry as a civil servant organization should.

 

[Salt USMC]

@JBS tell us honestly: do you think Andrew Breitbart was murdered?

 

[JBS]

@JBS tell us honestly: do you think Andrew Breitbart was murdered?

Who is "us"? Do you refer to yourself in the majestic 3rd person or do you mean a little Shadowspear clique you feel you belong to? Not good or healthy for the board my friend.

I don't know why I'm answering your disrespectful question, but the short answer is no, I don't.

This kind of "us" bullshit shouldn't happen here. It's extremely condescending.

 

[JBS]

I'm going to put a cork in it from here on, as I have the utmost respect for both the staff and members here but I don't like how this thread was handled and I don't have anything more to add.