Discuss and Debate: "Islam is a Religion of Peace"

[Marauder06]

This thread is an evolution of a discussion that cropped up in another thread. Take a point of view on the topic above and then, using things like logic, research, experience, and reason, support your position on the topic. Cite and post links to sources to support your point of view.

Be civil and be reasonable. No emotional responses, no personal attacks. I'll go ahead and warn everyone that if I think your posts do not add to the conversation, I'm just going to summarily delete them.

Game on!

 

[SpitfireV]

Do you want people to "sign up" and have it in even teams or as a one v one v one?

 

[TLDR20]

I havenothing positive to say so will say nothing.(other than this)

 

[fox1371]

Hmmm interesting debate topic. I would say that if no other religion existed in the world, then yes it would be a religion of peace. However since this is not the reality of things, I think that there is enough proof showing that it is not.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

I think the debate will be SS vs me lol. I'm preparing some stuff right now. I'll post it in a few.

 

[Marauder06]

I think the debate will be SS vs me lol. I'm preparing some stuff right now. I'll post it in a few.

You have at least one other compatriot ;)

Do you want people to "sign up" and have it in even teams or as a one v one v one?

Group effort. Pile on whichever side you see fit.

 

[Brill]

Be civil and be reasonable.

Pretend this post is a mentally challeged female in a "ninja suit" and I just used an old GSM phone to remotely detonate a SVEST that this post is wearing.

Islam cannot ethically be used in the same sentence as civility or be associated with a resonable person. Case in point: attempt to have this exact same discussion in (insert Islamic country of your choice). Please prove me wrong.

Delete away if you must but the memory of those lost in this fight against Islam are forever remembered in Northern Virginia.



Edited to add caveat: I lived in a Muslim country for 3 years and have worked in several Muslim countries exclusive of the OEF and OIF theater.

I have learned over the last 40 years that if someone states a "fact" about themselves, that "fact" is usually contradictory. If the believers feel it necessary to say that Islam is a religion of peace, it is most likely not. How many countries openly accepted Islam and were not forced to convert or be sanctioned (death, taxes, lower social status, etc)?

 

[Marauder06]

Pretend this post is a mentally challeged female in a "ninja suit" and I just used an old GSM phone to remotely detonate a SVEST that this post is wearing.

Islam cannot ethically be used in the same sentence as civility or be associated with a resonable person. Case in point: attempt to have this exact same discussion in (insert Islamic country of your choice). Please prove me wrong.

Delete away if you must but the memory of those lost in this fight against Islam are forever remembered in Northern Virginia.

View attachment 5523

Easy, brother ;) I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not going to delete your post because I think it can be instructive.

We're not currently nor have we ever been in a "fight against Islam." I've never operated under an EXORD that said "go out and defeat Islam," and I don't suspect you or anyone else has, either. My orders have instructed me to deter and defeat AQ and associated organizations (who are religiously motivated) but IMO that is an entirely different thing. In fact, I think our true enemies would LOVE it if the current struggle could be cast in religious terms, it would serve their interests well. Also, we're not in "one of those" countries, we're here in the US (well, most of us anyway) so I think we'll be alright having a meaningful discussion on this topic.

Now, if you think Islam is an existential threat to the US, or if Islam is incompatible with US values, or if you think that the AQ EXORD is the same as declaring a fight against Islam, I think you could make a case for that. It just needs a bit of fleshing out.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

Alrighty. Class got out early, so I get to partake earlier than planned. I'll preface this saying my mind is not definitively made up one way or the other. I understand this is a touchy subject, & I sympathize with those whom have lost friends in the current conflict (I have lost many as well).Nevertheless, I will argue for Islam being a religion of peace (in theory) for 2 reasons:
1). Mainly, because it seems to be the minority opinion on SS
2). The books I've read & courses I have taken advocate said view- to a certain extent.

Also, it may take me awhile to respond, but I will eventually. I have a crotch load of writing & reading to do in college. Also, my notes from Islamic Civ are in disarray, so I'm currently trying to organize them.
Again, thanks to Marauder & everyone contributing for the opportunity to engage you all & learn. Semper Fi.

I guess we can just dive into one of the bigger ones- Islam & tolerance. I figure we should start first with the Quran itself & what it teaches.

I'll start with one verse as an example. QC's tagline has Surah 3:28 on it:

Let not the Believers take the Unbelievers as friends - rather than the Believers. And whoever does that, then there is nothing from Allâh in any matter; unless that you only protect yourselves from them a protection. Thus Allâh cautions you of Himself; for towards Allâh is the eventual coming.​

Understandably this seems intolerant, but this surah was "revealed" at a time when Islam was currently battling unbelievers (post- battle of Badr & Uhud), so this surah was essentially an was to keep OPSEC.

It is also important to note that the above is simply one translation. My copy of the Quran says: "Let believers not make friends with infidels IN PREFERENCE to the faithful." If this is the case, this correlates with what Paul admonishes in 2 Cor. 6:14 (NASB):

Do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?​

 

[AWP]

We're not currently nor have we ever been in a "fight against Islam."

I would beg to differ, but that might be ANOTHER thread to consider though I could maybe make the argument that "religion of peace" and "war on Islam" are tangentially related.

 

[Marauder06]

I would beg to differ, but that might be ANOTHER thread to consider though I could maybe make the argument that "religion of peace" and "war on Islam" are tangentially related.

I think you could make that case in this thread if you wanted. And perhaps I should have said "declared" war on Islam.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

What intolerance do you all find in the Quran, whether it be towards unbelievers, women, etc.?

 

[policemedic]

This thread is an evolution of a discussion that cropped up in another thread. Take a point of view on the topic above and then, using things like logic, research, experience, and reason, support your position on the topic. Cite and post links to sources to support your point of view.

Be civil and be reasonable. No emotional responses, no personal attacks. I'll go ahead and warn everyone that if I think your posts do not add to the conversation, I'm just going to summarily delete them.

Game on!

Scholarly debate complete with APA format? Let me get my popcorn

More when I have time.

 

[Marauder06]

Scholarly debate complete with APA format? Let me get my popcorn

More when I have time.

lol

I just don't want people pulling stuff out of thin air and inventing "sources."

 

[policemedic]

Alrighty. Class got out early, so I get to partake earlier than planned. I'll preface this saying my mind is not definitively made up one way or the other. I understand this is a touchy subject, & I sympathize with those whom have lost friends in the current conflict (I have lost many as well).Nevertheless, I will argue for Islam being a religion of peace (in theory) for 2 reasons:
1). Mainly, because it seems to be the minority opinion on SS
2). The books I've read & courses I have taken advocate said view- to a certain extent.

Also, it may take me awhile to respond, but I will eventually. I have a crotch load of writing & reading to do in college. Also, my notes from Islamic Civ are in disarray, so I'm currently trying to organize them.
Again, thanks to Marauder & everyone contributing for the opportunity to engage you all & learn. Semper Fi.

I guess we can just dive into one of the bigger ones- Islam & tolerance. I figure we should start first with the Quran itself & what it teaches.

I'll start with one verse as an example. QC's tagline has Surah 3:28 on it:

Let not the Believers take the Unbelievers as friends - rather than the Believers. And whoever does that, then there is nothing from Allâh in any matter; unless that you only protect yourselves from them a protection. Thus Allâh cautions you of Himself; for towards Allâh is the eventual coming.​

Understandably this seems intolerant, but this surah was "revealed" at a time when Islam was currently battling unbelievers (post- battle of Badr & Uhud), so this surah was essentially an was to keep OPSEC.

It is also important to note that the above is simply one translation. My copy of the Quran says: "Let believers not make friends with infidels IN PREFERENCE to the faithful." If this is the case, this correlates with what Paul admonishes in 2 Cor. 6:14 (NASB):

Do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?​

Kudos on having the intellectual courage to examine and argue the unpopular opinion.

 

[Th3 Maelstr0m]

Kudos on having the intellectual courage to examine and argue the unpopular opinion.

thanks, but I think it's more curiosity than courage.

 

[Marauder06]

What intolerance do you all find in the Quran, whether it be towards unbelievers, women, etc.?

The first thing that comes to mind is that the "real" Koran can only be read in Arabic, everything else is "the meaning of the Koran." I think this comes from "behold! I have given you an Arabic Koran, written in a clear Arabic tongue," or words to that effect. So pretty elitist there. I think this is also an example of why it's important to understand the interpretation of the Koran, not just what's written there in black and white.

A couple of passages that IMO reflect intolerance of non-Muslims:

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

Position of women within Islam:

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.
2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.

I think another place to look for intolerance in the interpretation of Islam is to check out Bin Laden's "fatwas" and take a look at the passages that he uses to justify his actions.

 

[Brill]

We're not currently nor have we ever been in a "fight against Islam."

I have not been everywhere nor have I done everything BUT, other than a few Serbs, I have enabled the k/c of only Muslims. I completely agree that we cannot fight a religion however I firmly believe that Islam is fighting us. Just look at the numbers. How many non-Muslims have been killed by allied forces in the last 10 years of the GWOT? How many non-Muslims have killed allied forces since GWOT? Go back to the 80's when the war really started and it is very clear.

Why do Islamists tell all Muslims it their religious duty to wage jihad against infidels? My Baptist preacher never declared a crusade against drugs, alcohol, strip clubs, music, kite flying, females driving cars or voting, etc.

Most countries of the world allow freedom of religion with the overwhelming exception of predominately Muslim countries. I can say that in my travels when we crossed from a country where the majority were Muslims to a "Christian country" there was a NOTICEBLE difference. There was an disctint feeling of acceptance and tolerance. So much so, that my children even sensed it.

The holy Qur'an can say whatever: it's believers show me otherwise with their actions. Please identify one Christian group that has a history of beheading it's enemies.

Malestrom, I challenge you to take your English Qur'an to Saudi Arabia and take it to a mosque. You will quickly be identified a takfir, regardless of your citizenship. Schoolin' is great but life experiences will ultimately cause one to question academics.

I am just a guy trained to sift through large amounts of data to find patterns that identify characteristics and predictable behavior in order to exploit them. <-- I totally just made that shi'ite up.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Most know my opinions on Islam (that it is not a religion of peace) and I really don’t see the need to support my view/opinion. However, taking a snap shot of the last 50 years of history and how Islamic nations/groups have interacted with the world as a whole should be evidence enough to support the theory that they are not a religion of peace. Other source material would be, the Koran (there guide in the Islamic religion), also we bring into play the many political and or religious teachings that have called for Muslims to rise up and attack the enemy (i.e. the non-believer).

I think that the argument could be made that Islam is a religion of peace for those who are Muslim, as they supposedly only believe in killing the non-believer is part of their religious duty. However, I would argue that even within Islam the religion is not peaceful, as they continue to have an internal civil war between the two primary formats of the religion, the Sunni and the Shia.

Then of course there is the argument that there are extremist Muslims and non-extremist Muslims, but yet we find that most of the Islamic organizations give financial support to the “extremist” throughout the world. I would say that there are a few Muslims who are not “true practitioners” (I.e. people who are not as deeply involved in the religion) who are peaceful. However, most true Muslims would consider those non-practitioners to be going against Islam. So based on the Islamic religion as a whole, I would consider the non-practitioners to not be a good representation of the Islamic religion.

As for links and supporting documentation, I am not going to spend the next hour supporting my opinions. If you disagree with my opinions, you might want to do some research on the subject and the historical events throughout Islam. Further more if you research Muhammad the profit of Islam and the individual responsible for the creating Islam, you will find that he was more or less a bandit who used war and conquer and destroy methods to spread the religion of Islam. Thus further supporting my theory that Islam has never been religion of peace and never will be.

 

[Marauder06]

I have not been everywhere nor have I done everything BUT, other than a few Serbs, I have enabled the k/c of only Muslims. I completely agree that we cannot fight a religion however I firmly believe that Islam is fighting us. Just look at the numbers. How many non-Muslims have been killed by allied forces in the last 10 years of the GWOT? How many non-Muslims have killed allied forces since GWOT? Go back to the 80's when the war really started and it is very clear.

Why do Islamists tell all Muslims it their religious duty to wage jihad against infidels? My Baptist preacher never declared a crusade against drugs, alcohol, strip clubs, music, kite flying, females driving cars or voting, etc.

Most countries of the world allow freedom of religion with the overwhelming exception of predominately Muslim countries. I can say that in my travels when we crossed from a country where the majority were Muslims to a "Christian country" there was a NOTICEBLE difference. There was an disctint feeling of acceptance and tolerance. So much so, that my children even sensed it.

The holy Qur'an can say whatever: it's believers show me otherwise with their actions. Please identify one Christian group that has a history of beheading it's enemies.

Malestrom, I challenge you to take your English Qur'an to Saudi Arabia and take it to a mosque. You will quickly be identified a takfir, regardless of your citizenship. Schoolin' is great but life experiences will ultimately cause one to question academics.

I am just a guy trained to sift through large amounts of data to find patterns that identify characteristics and predictable behavior in order to exploit them. <-- I totally just made that shi'ite up.

I Googled "Christian group that has a history of beheading its enemies" just now and got several historical examples. ;) But this isn't a compare/contrast discussion between Islam and Christianity, although that might be a good discussion for another thread. For now we're trying to focus solely on Islam, and to determine whether or not it is "a religion of peace."