J.A.B.;187028]My background in LE is primarily training, attending and putting on classes.
I see. I guess that means, since you are not or never have been a commissioned LEO, you have no LE background to draw from at all. :doh:
In my experience, civilians don't usually attend LE agencies classes. So, you must be talking about civilian classes put on by the various civilian firearms 'experts,' some of whom are ex-LEOs and/or Competitive shooters, etc. Some of these people are excellent and others just want you money.
You say you put on classes for LEOs? What do you teach? What credentials do you have that qualifies you to teach what you teach? How long have you been teaching and how old are you?
Most 'competitive shooters' seem to have a VERY low opinion of LE firearms training and their shooting abilities. Sometimes it is justified; however, since you say you are a competitive shooter, it makes me wonder if you have that bias.
I have worked with several SWAT LEO’s and yes they are moving from the MP5 for cretin positions on SWAT teams, however they are not moving away from it totally. The M4 is being moved to in some cases for penetration and distance. Being able to penetrate body armor and shoot down long hallways EST.
Again, you say "several SWAT LEOs." Are they SWAT team members of a major SWAT team? Does their team have MP-5s? Do they have M-4 Carbines? How long have they been SWAT team members, what is their experience? What do they base their opinions on? I agree their is still a use for sub-guns, particularly the MP-5 because of it firing from a closed bolt, tends to lend to it's accuracy and also it's ease of use as a silenced weapon. I think its the best one on the market for that.
A number of the major SWAT teams get involved with dignitary protection and working with the Secret Service and State Department on visits of VIPs. The various compact MP-5 versions work well in this area. My snipers also worked with the Secret Service on most Presidential visits to my AO.
I also see the need for the change to the FA M-4 carbine. Most major LE SWAT teams are using the M-4 carbine or other types of domestic made FA Carbines. The penetration of body armor is an important factor, as well as range. Also to be taken into consideration is the fact, that most LEO's are ex-military and have been trained in the use of the M-16 series weapons, as well as in some cases used them in combat.
The cost of the weapon as well as availability of parts, etc. is also an important consideration. Have you compared LE prices between an MP-5 (Or for that matter any H&K weapons System) to the Colt M-4 or other domestic carbine types? M-16 30 or 15 rd. magazines jump out, as fairly easy to come up with compared to H&K or other weapons systems. The department's 'Bean Counters' are always joyfully, ready to cut items out of the budget you submit.
Most LEO’s that want a FA option want it for simple cool factor. I base that off of several conversations with SWAT and non SWAT LEO’s that have said yays and nays. Most have very little experience in FA and the ones who do, say they would not use it. The ones who obviously have zero experience with a FA AR15 platform are normally the ones who want it for cool factor…
There is of course some truth, to what you say about the coolness factor; however, in my experience, such 'coolness,' is usually prevalent in rookies, and/or very young inexperienced LEOs.
Make no mistake, I do not condone FA weapons of LEO's who are not in the SWAT team or other LE teams (There are others.) armed with Special Weapons. IMO, ordinary patrol and/or individual weapons do not need FA weapons. They do need SA carbines, however, in this day and age as well as the old 870 12 GA!
I do see the need for Special LE units to have Special weapons, to include FA weapons. One has to pretty naive in this day and age, to come to the conclusion, that LE agencies don't need such weapons. The LE agencies of the USA are just as involved in the GWOT as the military in their own way. Also, keep in mind the Drug cartels, 'Gang Bangers' form all over South America and Mexico, as well as Foreign and Domestic Terrorists. Most all of whom are armed with FA weapons like the AK-47 and it's various newer models.
Nope no police chief here, I attempt to keep my distance from the LE world ;)
Hmmm ... for someone that makes this statement, you seem to have a lot to say about the LE field, without any practical LE experience.
I'm not trying to bust your chops here nor get into a pissing contest, just trying to point out why some of your comments might tend to get a retired SWAT team commander who served 34 Years in LE a little upset.
:2c:
