I see. I guess that means, since you are not or never have been a commissioned LEO, you have no LE background to draw from at all.
Nope never been a LEO. However, if you feel that b/c I have not I have no imput. I guess we just should not discuss opinions.
In my experience, civilians don't usually attend LE agencies classes. So, you must be talking about civilian classes put on by the various civilian firearms 'experts,' some of whom are ex-LEOs and/or Competitive shooters, etc. Some of these people are excellent and others just want you money.
I have over 1000 hours of LE course I have attended… Guess it must be different around here… They normally are happy to have a mil guy attend a class
You say you put on classes for LEOs? What do you teach? What credentials do you have that qualifies you to teach what you teach? How long have you been teaching and how old are you?
Taught pistol and rifle marksmanship, only spent about 4 years (off and on mostly weekend stuff) teaching it on a private bases… a lot of word of mouth and guys wanting to become better… I am 26 years old.
Most 'competitive shooters' seem to have a VERY low opinion of LE firearms training and their shooting abilities. Sometimes it is justified; however, since you say you are a competitive shooter, it makes me wonder if you have that bias.
Only when their ego gets in the way, or when they start throwing their LE experience around… I am a shooter, and I attempt to stay in my lane. I have never taught tactics to LE and I wont! I am very bias too anyone who doesn’t have an open mind to shooting and or dismisses someone’s knowledge b/c of age, race, background.
Again, you say "several SWAT LEOs." Are they SWAT team members of a major SWAT team? Does their team have MP-5s? Do they have M-4 Carbines? How long have they been SWAT team members, what is their experience? What do they base their opinions on? I agree their is still a use for sub-guns, particularly the MP-5 because of it firing from a closed bolt, tends to lend to it's accuracy and also it's ease of use as a silenced weapon. I think its the best one on the market for that.
Don’t know all of their background, but yes they are members of a large full time SWAT team, yes they use the MP5, P90, M4 and M14. Do not know what else they carry; I am not on their Team. I also know a lot of small town multi jurisdictional SWAT team members along with several members who have been involved in the counter drug program. Of course I also know and have taught the (SWAT basic certified) ass clown who wears a SWAT badge and thinks he is SWAT too. LE is very diverse in it’s people it attracts, much like the military!
A number of the major SWAT teams get involved with dignitary protection and working with the Secret Service and State Department on visits of VIPs. The various compact MP-5 versions work well in this area. My snipers also worked with the Secret Service on most Presidential visits to my AO.
I also see the need for the change to the FA M-4 carbine. Most major LE SWAT teams are using the M-4 carbine or other types of domestic made FA Carbines. The penetration of body armor is an important factor, as well as range. Also to be taken into consideration is the fact, that most LEO's are ex-military and have been trained in the use of the M-16 series weapons, as well as in some cases used them in combat.
The cost of the weapon as well as availability of parts, etc. is also an important consideration. Have you compared LE prices between an MP-5 (Or for that matter any H&K weapons System) to the Colt M-4 or other domestic carbine types? M-16 30 or 15 rd. magazines jump out, as fairly easy to come up with compared to H&K or other weapons systems. The department's 'Bean Counters' are always joyfully, ready to cut items out of the budget you submit.
I could not agree more with you on this, but I still do not see how FA M4 is practical for a SAWT team. When talking about the liabilities involved with the dynamic nature of a SWAT team, their abilities to go in half-cocked and spray some lead will result in charges being filed and multiple lawsuits. There is some good case law regarding this in Florida!
There is of course some truth, to what you say about the coolness factor; however, in my experience, such 'coolness,' is usually prevalent in rookies, and/or very young inexperienced LEOs.
Make no mistake, I do not condone FA weapons of LEO's who are not in the SWAT team or other LE teams (There are others.) armed with Special Weapons. IMO, ordinary patrol and/or individual weapons do not need FA weapons. They do need SA carbines, however, in this day and age as well as the old 870 12 GA!
I do see the need for Special LE units to have Special weapons, to include FA weapons. One has to pretty naive in this day and age, to come to the conclusion, that LE agencies don't need such weapons. The LE agencies of the USA are just as involved in the GWOT as the military in their own way. Also, keep in mind the Drug cartels, 'Gang Bangers' form all over South America and Mexico, as well as Foreign and Domestic Terrorists. Most all of whom are armed with FA weapons like the AK-47 and it's various newer models.
Are we talking about a city LEA SWAT team or a CD-TF Tactical team? I have also worked with the Tactical CD-TF teams, ADSW/AT/ ADT with state CD program&(JTF- North), helping train teams on military tactics and helo (air assault as they called it) ops and weapons familiarizations. I would agree that these team’s do need FA weapons in cretin operations...
I'm not trying to bust your chops here nor get into a pissing contest, just trying to point out why some of your comments might tend to get a retired SWAT team commander who served 34 Years in LE a little upset.
:2c:
No worries, I simply have an opinion. Even if I don’t have 34 years experience as a SWAT commander. I did not mean to be disrespectful to the LE community by my post, I guess I could try to word it different next time. I hope you are enjoying the retirement! ;)
