Full auto carbines and law enforcement.

8

8'Duece

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This was one of the best threads on another site. What I'm asking is that both SOF soldiers and Law enforcement answer some tough questions regarding the use of "full auto" in the law enforcement community.

1. What is the need for FA in urban law enforcement ?

2. If you are using an "FA" carbine, AR15, then how much training have you had with the use of "FA" and what ROE with "FA" does your department have ?

3. How much training on "FA" is enough ? One course of instruction ? two, three, and who is training you to use a weapon on "FA"

4. Given that the SFAUC only instructs it's students in "SEMI AUTO" type of fire, what justification do law enforcement officers and SWAT have to use and outdated firing method ?

Heres' the method of fire used by the professional soldiers in the SOF community and straight from the SFAUC manual of CQB type of fire.

1. Slow aimed fire.
2. Controlled Pairs.
3. Double Taps.
4. Hammers.

What say you ??
 

SgtUSMC8541

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Hell, most cops I know that carry M16/4 type rifles in their cars have had MINIMAL amount of any training on it. So giving them a FA system to me sounds like a bad idea. When they taught us in sniper school..... number of rounds down range dont mean shit, amount of steel on target does.
 
8

8'Duece

Guest
Here's where I'm trying to go with this.

1. Who in any law enforcement capacity it trained well enough to use "FA" fire in a semi permissive envirenment with any if little accuracy ?

2. What about indiscrimantory rounds ? Collateral damage ? liability ?

3. How many real world scenarios have law enforcement officers encounted where they've had to break contact or lay out supppressive fire?

4. Anybody watch "Dallas SWAT?" .......................notice they use full auto and expend two 30 round mags ? Why ? What purpose ? are they fully trained beyond that of SOF forces and is their something they know that the SOF forces and DELTA do not ?

5. What is the ROE on a fully automatic fireing method ?
 

Trip_Wire

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Hell, most cops I know that carry M16/4 type rifles in their cars have had MINIMAL amount of any training on it. So giving them a FA system to me sounds like a bad idea. When they taught us in sniper school..... number of rounds down range dont mean shit, amount of steel on target does.


The start of LEO's carrying 'Patrol Rifles and/or Carbines, in most jurisdictions started with the acceptance of female and smaller LEOs into the Profession.

They couldn't handle the 12 GA shotgun's recoil, etc. Many times, the accepted Carbine used the same ammo as the agencies pistol, which was 9 MM at that time. Most of these 9MM Carbines didn't do the job needed.

My agency pushed the H&K 94 Semi-Auto version of the MP-5. Of course, this weapon was no longer available from H&K in a short time. It was expensive as well.

http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/94/94.htm

In view of the poor showing of the 9MM and other pistol ammo, most agencies and/or LEOs opted for the 5.56 round and carbines and rifles that handled that ammo. Usually, the Colt AR-15 or CAR-15.

After some of the 'school' hostage situations, especially the one in Colorado, LE agencies had to re-think the idea of first LEO responders waiting for SWAT, etc. and it's weapons and tactics.

So the need for first LE responders (Patrol) officers to be armed with semi-auto carbines and/or rifles was developed as well as trainng for these first responders, to work as a team and use SWAT type tactics, until the regular SWAT team could take over as needed. Most currant LE agencies Patrol units are now equipped with 5.56 semi-auto carbines and rifles and have practiced and trained to act as a team when needed. (Hostage situation, where action is needed ASAP.)

Most Carbines and Rifles used by LEO's are purchased by the individual LEO, who can not normally purchase a full-auto version of that rifles or carbine, they are under the same restrictions as the average citizen. Some agencies provide a list of authorized 'Patrol" rifles and Carbines that an LEO may purchase and/or carry in their patrol vehicle. They will sign of on a LE discount on them as well.

Of course, LE Departments can and does purchase fully automatic weapons. I know of no major department, that issues full-auto weapons to individual LEOs to carry in their patrol car, nor IMO should there be any reason for such a thing to happen. It's pretty easy to break into a trunk, particularly, where police vehicles are taken home and parked in driveways, etc.

The only use of full-auto weapons, should be by LEO SWAT teams, trained in there use. All other weapons used by LEO's should be and usually are semi-auto weapons.
 

Rabid Badger

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Here's where I'm trying to go with this.

1. Who in any law enforcement capacity it trained well enough to use "FA" fire in a semi permissive envirenment with any if little accuracy ?

2. What about indiscrimantory rounds ? Collateral damage ? liability ?

3. How many real world scenarios have law enforcement officers encounted where they've had to break contact or lay out supppressive fire?

4. Anybody watch "Dallas SWAT?" .......................notice they use full auto and expend two 30 round mags ? Why ? What purpose ? are they fully trained beyond that of SOF forces and is their something they know that the SOF forces and DELTA do not ?

5. What is the ROE on a fully automatic fireing method ?

DAMN TRIP...AND WHILE YOU WERE TYPING THAT I WAS TYPING THIS.....

I think you'll find very few LEA's train full auto. Not so much for liability sake but for rounds on target....not to mention.....they don't train on longgun much except for SWAT....hate to say it but the only time they touch that M4 is to turn it in at the end of shift...

FA these days is for hot-dogs and crew served weapons...

We never trained FA, doesn't mean it's not trainable, it's just that carrying about 2 basic loads of ammo goin in would be expended in about 2 minutes and you'd be calling for exfil...:uhh:

Good answers here as well:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/history/326668-why-no-full-auto-m16.html

and this:

The M16 simply perpetuated the mistakes of the past, except that it was now worse. Now every gun had a "go faster switch" and fire discipline became a thing of the past. I still remember the TV coverage of the battle of Hue with the rifleman sticking his M16 over the parapet by the pistol grip and firing a full magazine without the slightest idea of what he was shooting at. What a waste! Tactics were going the way of the "Do-Do Bird" and everyone was marveling at the number of rounds that the average rifleman was able to fire against our enemy(s), although I began to suspect that our real enemy resided in the Defense Department in the name of Robert McNamara, and leadership in the Military by individuals who hadn't seen combat since the charge up San Juan Hill.
from here:

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html
 

Trip_Wire

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82ndtrooper;185545]Here's where I'm trying to go with this.

1. Who in any law enforcement capacity it trained well enough to use "FA" fire in a semi permissive envirenment with any if little accuracy ?

SWAT teams, who have been trained, with FA weapons.

2. What about indiscrimantory rounds ? Collateral damage ? liability ?

The use of FA fire, in a LE situation is pretty limited; however, SWAT teams may be the first responders to a terrorist attack or other situations where the need for FA fire is called for. Yes, any use of a firearm will be examined and judged by an agencies firearms review board, as will as the courts, etc.

3. How many real world scenarios have law enforcement officers encounted where they've had to break contact or lay out suppressive fire?

I doubt that it would be used by LEO SWAT teams very often; however, I could see the need for 'suppressive' fire to aid movement, etc.

4. Anybody watch "Dallas SWAT?" .......................notice they use full auto and expend two 30 round mags ? Why ? What purpose ? are they fully trained beyond that of SOF forces and is their something they know that the SOF forces and DELTA do not ?

I have only watched it a couple of times. I wasn't impressed. I have no clue why one would have to expend two 30 rd Mags. But then it is Texas ... right? ;) :uhh:

5. What is the ROE on a fully automatic fireing method ?

I would think in the case of LE agencies each one would have their own ROE and firearms policies. Such things, are usually based on the FBI's standards and teachings. I don't recall any ROE for "a fully automatic fireing method" in my military units either. Did you have one in the 82nd?? :D
 

pardus

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I was trained to fire FA on my lead scouts course (first mag when ambushed/very close contact) and was instructed to fire FA by the SAS in urban room clearing type drills with MP5s.

It's use is very limited but it has it's place.

:2c:
 
8

8'Duece

Guest
TW,

I don't remember any ROE, especially for full auto M16A1's. :D

When we did recieve the M16A2 with a three round burst button, we did actually have some training on three round bursts at single targets with emphasis on ammo conservation. My first wake up call to what full auto was not, and what controlled burst where. Target to target, preferably on single fire and double taps.

My reason for the thread is that our city PD just recieved full auto's from the DoD and every single officer is now all giddy about the advent of having the "fun button" on their new shiny rifle. :uhh: I might add that none of our officers are military veterans with the exception of one that was with a ANG unit that was an MP unit.

Good points thus far. Thanks.
 

Trip_Wire

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TW,

I don't remember any ROE, especially for full auto M16A1's. :D

When we did recieve the M16A2 with a three round burst button, we did actually have some training on three round bursts at single targets with emphasis on ammo conservation. My first wake up call to what full auto was not, and what controlled burst where. Target to target, preferably on single fire and double taps.

My reason for the thread is that our city PD just recieved full auto's from the DoD and every single officer is now all giddy about the advent of having the "fun button" on their new shiny rifle. :uhh: I might add that none of our officers are military veterans with the exception of one that was with a ANG unit that was an MP unit.

Good points thus far. Thanks.

Two points here.:

As I stated in my first post on the subject. I do not condone the issuing of full-auto weapons for the general use of LEO's, except those especially trained in there use as well as the training in the tactics, to properly use them. In other words, a a highly trained SWAT Team. No exceptions!

The Chief of Police that allows for all his people to be issued FA weapons, is asking for and no doubt will get some major incidents and many legal problems, in the VERY near future! :doh::rolleyes:

2nd Point:

During my time in the WAANG (Air Guard) They made me an 'AP' because they didn't know what to do with an Infantry type. The Air Police, at that time were supposed to use basic Infantry weapons in base defense, etc. So I guess they were right. So, isn't that AF 'MP' a Military Veteran??
 

Rabid Badger

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Deuce: Next time you got to the range...drop down in the prone and time yourself with both firing methods.....FA and prone supported or unsupported.

Engage a silh at 25 tards with both......

except in the prone on semi, squeeze as fast as you can and adjust the recoil back on target.

As you count the shots after the shoots with both methods, you'll see why full auto is not the preferred rounds on target method, guaranteed.

Youll also find that the timing is not that much different.

Barnhardt X2 was the learning curve.... :uhh:
 
8

8'Duece

Guest
Two points here.:

As I stated in my first post on the subject. I do not condone the issuing of full-auto weapons for the general use of LEO's, except those especially trained in there use as well as the training in the tactics, to properly use them. In other words, a a highly trained SWAT Team. No exceptions!

The Chief of Police that allows for all his people to be issued FA weapons, is asking for and no doubt will get some major incidents and many legal problems, in the VERY near future! :doh::rolleyes:

2nd Point:

During my time in the WAANG (Air Guard) They made me an 'AP' because they didn't know what to do with an Infantry type. The Air Police, at that time were supposed to use basic Infantry weapons in base defense, etc. So I guess they were right. So, isn't that AF 'MP' a Military Veteran??


On your first point. I agree, highly trained SWAT units only, but just how highly trained are SWAT units these day's when I see "Dallas SWAT" rock n rolling in full auto through two 30 round mags ? Who have they been trained by ? What prior experience do our SWAT team members actually have, other than on a static range flat range ? If a SWAT team member expends 5-7 rounds on full auto how many grains of lead is he throwing at a particular target ? If I used one shot from a 12 gauge of OO buck how many grains of lead am I throwing at one target, with minimal chance of collateral damage ? What empoyment of either weapon system is best ? I would like to think I know the answer to that question, but I've not served on a SWAT team. If my department is going spend boo koo bucko's on fancy rifles, I'd hope they have enough sense to spend boo koo bucko's on training from the right people. Paul Howe, Larry Vickers, Jim Smith, Trident Concepts ?

If one of officers does employ his or her rifle in the full auto function and my son is injured or killed, then I'm going to demand training records for the officer in question ? What is their skill level? how was it obtained? what is their ROE regarding the use of full auto? and who has trained them and how often has that particular officer trained with the weapon system ? As of right now, I'm afraid my department would have a hard time coming up with anything more than one day at a range with a ANG guy having been the designated firearms marksmenship instructor.

On your second point. I was not trying to diss the ANG individual about his prior service, however I highly doubt that he's any more qaulified than me to employ the use of full auto with an AR15 rifle. Not that I'm a high speed low drag dude type, but I'm not a newbie to the weapon systems that our department is about to start carrying along with the shotgun in their crusiers. I might even be so bold as to say that I could probably teach most them how to actually employ the weapon system. I don't think they even know how to zero their irons at this point.

Just some more thoughts.
 
8

8'Duece

Guest
Deuce: Next time you got to the range...drop down in the prone and time yourself with both firing methods.....FA and prone supported or unsupported.

Engage a silh at 25 tards with both......

except in the prone on semi, squeeze as fast as you can and adjust the recoil back on target.

As you count the shots after the shoots with both methods, you'll see why full auto is not the preferred rounds on target method, guaranteed.

Youll also find that the timing is not that much different.

Barnhardt X2 was the learning curve.... :uhh:


I don't even think I have to actually do it to see the results that you've described. I have no doubt. ;):cool:
 

Ajax

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I don't have any LE experience, unless you count "peace keeping", but from the SOF side, I use FA for two things: 1. Suppressive fire in a peel 2. Check my shooting stance at the range. If I get rocked back on my heels, I'm not doing it right. Can't think of a practical app on the streets (unless we're talking about Haifa St or Chicken St :D)
 
8

8'Duece

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I don't have any LE experience, unless you count "peace keeping", but from the SOF side, I use FA for two things: 1. Suppressive fire in a peel 2. Check my shooting stance at the range. If I get rocked back on my heels, I'm not doing it right. Can't think of a practical app on the streets (unless we're talking about Haifa St or Chicken St :D)

I'm glad you mentioned the "Center Peel" But, I can't see any scenario that law enforcement would employ a peel.
 

Cabbage Head

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Have to say it...to the Donut Shop


And that would be a tactical peal.

Ok, from the LE side of things I agree that FA is not for the patrol types. I have trained some of our officers in rifle marksmanship. I found that some take it serious and others not so. Some retain what they learn and others forget how to operate the charging handle and bolt catch just to clear out the rifle and show an empty chamber.

To trust those with a FA rifle would lead to trouble and liability issues. I dont see my PD giving us the time/training/ammo to keep us in the levels of proficiency and confidence in FA fire.

For the SRT team, we have FA's on most of our weapons. A mixed bag of m16/M4/MP5/G36's. Some of us have been to training on FA fire but, most have not.

I feel there is a place for it but, for most of LE work it is not necessary.
 

Trip_Wire

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82ndtrooper;185604]On your first point. I agree, highly trained SWAT units only, but just how highly trained are SWAT units these day's when I see "Dallas SWAT" rock n rolling in full auto through two 30 round mags ?

I think I covered that, in my last! TEXAS! :p:rolleyes:

Who have they been trained by ? What prior experience do our SWAT team members actually have, other than on a static range flat range ?

In this State as is in many other States, the basic SWAT course is controlled by that State. As I recall, the training curriculum and standards were set up by the FBI.

Usually, agents from the local office's SWAT team monitor the course and some time provide instructors. They also use selected people, from major LE agencies SWAT teams in the State as instructors. (State Patrol, Seattle Police PD and King County Sheriff.)

Their are two SWAT classes, Basic and Advanced. The courses are conducted on Ft. Lewis, WA and many different types of ranges, are used depending on the weapon being fired and the type of training being conducted. There is also a special course for snipers.

My old SWAT team, as well as most others in our State, train as a team regularly, in both weapons and tactics, to include fast roping from the departments Chopper. In a recent training exercise, my old team fast roped on to a moving State Ferry out in Puget Sound.

In the selection process, the SWAT Team commander, try's to pick people from Military Special Operations units, such as SEALs, SF, Rangers and both Airborne and Infantry combat veterans. I think there are at least two SEALs, two Rangers and and SF guy or two on my old team. Many are in the Reserve, NG, etc. and have been deployed a few times to the GWOT. I think most major LE agencies do this in selection.

If a SWAT team member expends 5-7 rounds on full auto how many grains of lead is he throwing at a particular target ? If I used one shot from a 12 gauge of OO buck how many grains of lead am I throwing at one target, with minimal chance of collateral damage ?

Most of the FA weapons on my old team were fixed with the 3 rd burst selector. So, 5 — 7 Rds, Isn't a big factor. As I pointed out not much need for more than a 3 Rd burst. Exception? Suppressive fire to cover team movement or rescue wounded, etc.

Shot guns in SWAT teams are used more for entry tools, and firing ferret (CS Rds.) It is also one of the weapons in the entry team for close up work.

What empoyment of either weapon system is best ? I would like to think I know the answer to that question, but I've not served on a SWAT team. Food for thought kinda thing.

Most teams, use either MP-5's or M-4 Carbines now days, for there entry teams along with at least one semi-auto shotgun. I think the M-4s are now more popular with most teams, because of Bad Guy body armor and some other reasons. Most teams, have also opted to carry .45 or .40 Cal Semi-auto handguns, no matter what, the normal department issue pistol is. I think the .45 leads the pack there.

If one of officers does employ his or her rifle in the full auto function and my son is injured or killed, then I'm going to demand training records for the officer in question ? What is their skill level? how was it obtained? what is their ROE regarding the use of full auto? and who has trained them and how often has that particular officer trained with the weapon system ?

I think I sort of covered this before. In any case the civilian legal system has both criminal and civil resources to cover such incidents, as injuries and death by police action. Yes, Training records could become a part of such criminal or civil action. LE Agencies need to keep their individual officers training records up to date, etc. to cover all the things you have mentioned. Most major departments do so. ROE as I said should be covered in the Departments firearms regulations and/or policies.


As of right now, I'm afraid my department would have a hard time coming up with anything more than one day at a range with a ANG guy having been the designated firearms marksmenship instructor.

Sooner or later, especially with the issue of FA weapons to regular officers without special training, etc. Your community will be spending 'mucho' $$$ to settle law-suits, etc. Not to mention the bad media.

On your second point. I was not trying to diss the ANG individual about his prior service, however I highly doubt that he's any more qaulified than me to employ the use of full auto with an AR15 rifle. Not that I'm a high speed low drag dude type, but I'm not a newbie to the weapon systems that our department is about to start carrying along with the shotgun in their crusiers. I might even be so bold as to say that I could probably teach most them how to actually employ the weapon system. I don't think they even know how to zero their irons at this point.

I agree! Offer your services to your Chief and explain so of the stuff we're talking about here. Doesn't your State Training Commission have any training standards for these things? :eek:
 

Scotth

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Good thread with some solid info.

Was just going to echo a point TW made in his first post. My Uncle is an Assistant Police Chief and they had a citizen ambush one of his officers and killed him. When they setup a wide perimeter around the block in the initial phases of trying to capture the guy. They had the guy moving in between houses and across the street but couldn't hit him because they only had MP5's and the shot was to long. They got AR15 after that incident for some of the officers.

He also talked about school shooting changing there response tactics and not waiting for SWAT to arrive and having to go in sooner as soon as you could get back-up.
 
8

8'Duece

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I can see the limitations of the MP5 series and 9mm Luger, hence the AR15 or the G36 rifle. Like every weapon there are certain limitations and one cannot be fully implimented for all puposes.

Trip Wires SWAT teams must be much more advanced than ours. Our is a county wide SWAT team made up of members of all the cities PD's in the county. As of now every single newbie to the force wants on the county SWAT. Last I checked we had one SOF guy on the team and he got tired of working with what he called "less than desirable skill sets" We need a new trainup or something.
 
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