Lower the Drinking Age on Base to 18?

[Viper1]

This is the point. If they are drunken assholes at 18, they'll be drunken assholes at 21. Dumb shit is dumb shit but if they break a law, they don’t deserve a break.

Guys grow up @RackMaster. Guys can change, and sometimes do.

Moreover, I don't want them to learn how to be drunken a-holes at an earlier age. This isn't about the self-selected pre-determined lost causes. For me, its about the guys on the fence, the good guys who just need some time to save a little money, get some good training and mentorship, grow up a little bit, and ease into their 21st year responsibly.

 

[pardus]

If the drinking for under 21 is restricted to on post, what's the problem? Is there not unit or barrack duty pers? What about RP's or if shit really goes wrong, the MP's? I'm not saying stupid shit won't happen. If it does, that's what punishment is for and if they keep it up; kick them the fuck out. It's up to the more senior members to set a good example and mentor the junior dipshits.

Agreed, I think too that it should only be for on post facilities. The CoC should be involved in this and by CoC I primarily mean Squad Leader/Team Leader/PL SGT.
I'm all about mentoring new/young guys. Mentoring the new guys is a meaningful way that I have to instill in these guys the right way to do their job/be a soldier/make sound decisions, and apart from the desire to go to war, doing so is something that keeps me motivated.

 

[Totentanz]

There is already an inordinate amount of time spent on Soldiers of all ages doing dumb stuff. No need to add more fuel to the fire. Removing Soldiers from service is part of the job but it is emotionally exhausting, especially when quality NCOs are spending nights, weekends, and free time trying to coach, teach, mentor, and counsel their guys through trouble. It's never easy. It's never just one issue, it usually snowballs into a avalanche of poor decisions and unintended consequences. We've been able to turn a couple guys lives around with quick, swift, aggressive intervention, but until it's pins and needles until they are on the right side of the line. They are important parts of the team and I won't support giving them a free pass to ruin. There are enough of those already. Besides, changing it solely for military folks just makes it "us vs. them."

This is what I keep getting hung up on. Where the drinking age should be set is a separate discussion (as @Il Duce aptly pointed out), and it's somewhat difficult to separate, but what I'm not getting is why military should get a pass on this issue when the rest of the population doesn't. Referencing post #33 again, I can't come up with any justification other than the two listed, and I think they're pretty thin... IMO, either the age should move for all or it should move for none.

 

[Il Duce]

@RackMaster I think the issues are significant.

1. If we're saying Soldiers should be eligible to drink before citizens I think we're sending a terrible message to the military and civilian world. Of all the privileges and rights you could honor service with early alcohol consumption seems like it should be very low on the list. The message elevates the importance of alcohol consumption - something society already struggles with. Further, the rates of alcohol problems - especially when mixed with prescription drugs - amongst service members are significant.

2. If the rules are intended to make the lives of Soldiers better or safer we have concrete examples where it has been tried - and it did not work. I was at Ft. Huachuca for the MI Captain's Career Course in 2007 and they were trying it out - it was a disaster. The idea was Soldiers were going to drink anyway, why not give them a controlled environment within walking distance of their barracks thus cutting down on DUIs, unwillingness to report serious incidents for fear of getting in trouble for underage drinking, and the victimization of Soldiers by predators in the surrounding area. The results were a significant increase in binge drinking - after all, the post commander has essentially endorsed alcohol as the best means of having fun for young Soldiers. With the underage drinking allowances you now had a flood of underage civilians flowing onto post as 'guests' in order to partake in the festivities. Soldiers were able to hook up with a lot more high-schoolers with the new policy - and the post got to deal with all the consequences of that to include statutory rape, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, etc. Article 15s went through the roof as Soldiers could now drink as much as they wanted - alongside their cadre - then walk over to the barracks and get into it.

Drinking, like many other drugs, is a personal right and responsibility. Whenever it becomes a significant part of the identity or social structure of an organization it becomes a problem. Army policy, in my opinion, should be similar to every other off-duty activity. Have fun as far as the law and your own morals dictate but you are always a Soldier and always a leader - so the Army Values and your responsibilities never cease, no matter what you put into your body.

 

[RackMaster]

I agree with the double standard, the age limit should be the same across the country. But that's for your governments to sort out. We deal with it up here, age limits differ in each province and soldiers have to abide by local law. Frankly, it's a societal problem and it's not getting better. Until all that changes, you might as well lock Joe up in the barracks until his enlistment is up.

 

[pardus]

@RackMaster I think the issues are significant.

1. If we're saying Soldiers should be eligible to drink before citizens I think we're sending a terrible message to the military and civilian world. Of all the privileges and rights you could honor service with early alcohol consumption seems like it should be very low on the list. The message elevates the importance of alcohol consumption - something society already struggles with. Further, the rates of alcohol problems - especially when mixed with prescription drugs - amongst service members are significant.

2. If the rules are intended to make the lives of Soldiers better or safer we have concrete examples where it has been tried - and it did not work. I was at Ft. Huachuca for the MI Captain's Career Course in 2007 and they were trying it out - it was a disaster. The idea was Soldiers were going to drink anyway, why not give them a controlled environment within walking distance of their barracks thus cutting down on DUIs, unwillingness to report serious incidents for fear of getting in trouble for underage drinking, and the victimization of Soldiers by predators in the surrounding area. The results were a significant increase in binge drinking - after all, the post commander has essentially endorsed alcohol as the best means of having fun for young Soldiers. With the underage drinking allowances you now had a flood of underage civilians flowing onto post as 'guests' in order to partake in the festivities. Soldiers were able to hook up with a lot more high-schoolers with the new policy - and the post got to deal with all the consequences of that to include statutory rape, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, etc. Article 15s went through the roof as Soldiers could now drink as much as they wanted - alongside their cadre - then walk over to the barracks and get into it.

Drinking, like many other drugs, is a personal right and responsibility. Whenever it becomes a significant part of the identity or social structure of an organization it becomes a problem. Army policy, in my opinion, should be similar to every other off-duty activity. Have fun as far as the law and your own morals dictate but you are always a Soldier and always a leader - so the Army Values and your responsibilities never cease, no matter what you put into your body.

Point 2 is interesting. That shows the culture in the corps or unit or base is lacking discipline and maturity. Furthermore, it shows that the NCOs and Officers are weak and unworthy of leadership roles. In that respect I'd say the alcohol policy was a success in showing that there are serious issues in the base/unit/corps that need sorting out.

I don't discount the idea that this is unworkable, but what it shows to me is that there are serious problems in the system, those need to be sorted out. Alcohol isn't the problem, it's just highlighting that problem. I like it for that, then again, I think the Military system is fucked up anyway and needs a kick in the ass.

 

[BloodStripe]

When I got to Rota, Spain in 2003 we were one of the few Marine Corps units that could legally drink overseas under the age of 21. There were fewer libo incidents when younger Marines got to drink legally. The novelty wore off rather quickly and there was nothing to hide. One big advantage we had though was nobody was allowed a car except NCO's and of course the contract marriage Marines. This cut out a lot of risk for DUI's.

How many officers got shit drunk while in college underage? Those who live in glass houses should not cast stones in my opinion. Yes, there are rules to follow, but that is a simple fix.

 

[SpitfireV]

Would seem a simple solution if it were lowered. Make the expectations clear and enforce those expectations to the letter. If you don't perform to standard you get punished. If you can't follow simple rules...?

 

[Viper1]

Would seem a simple solution if it were lowered. Make the expectations clear and enforce those expectations to the letter. If you don't perform to standard you get punished. If you can't follow simple rules...?

We already have that. It's called waiting until your 21, just like the current rule states.

 

[Marauder06]

Here's an article in support of lowering the drinking age, I think most of the main arguments are covered in our thread.

Personally I think lowering the drinking age is a bad idea and is totally unnecessary.
http://www.havokjournal.com/culture/drinking-age-us-military-age-maturity/

 

[fox1371]

I think the drinking age should be lowered to 18 nationwide. While I would definitely agree that there would be an initial increase in incidents, I think they would end up planing out as the nostalgia wears off. I feel that too often, we as a society attempt to deal with problems with a blanket rule for everyone. Much like group punishment, it's ineffective. At 18 years old, you're deemed an adult. You can be married, purchase a house, you can have the responsibilities of children, but we don't allow them to have a beer?

I'd be curious to see if lowering the drinking age, would have a positive effect on society, in regards to people maturing at an earlier age. Right now it's normal to see people party all throughout their early 20's, and not begin to really think about life until their late 20's. I wonder if lowering the legal drinking age would let people get through that party phase at an earlier age? I know me personally, I drank underage while in the military. I did quite a bit of partying before I was 21 (perks of being stationed oversees). By the time I was actually 21, I could've cared less about going out and getting extremely drunk.

 

[Ranger Psych]

I am against it as a whole.... simple fact, privates are stupid and will do stupid shit. Throw alcohol in and it just gets worse, even in Batt. I drank underage, outside the barracks it was maybe once a month with all other days off being the squad/team DD. In the barracks it was variable but I was a barracks rat so the extent of it ran into crazy gaming sessions either tabletop, PC, or console, playing in the platoon or company throw-together bands with my bass guitar, or seeing if I could rattle another company's barracks ceiling tiles with my bass amp cranked all the way up (my 700 watt bass guitar amp through the Peavey 410 cabinet *was* more than enough.... only thing that happened was I got a playlist from all the tabs that wanted to hear something since I shut down before CQ or Staff Duty would have flipped their shit)... rather mundane, even as the platoon "Keeper of the Tap".

having said that, I also think that there should be some official, or even unofficial latitude given to LTC+ with regards to being able to do unit libo or whatever. I had a glorious time after coming back from a multi-field rotation and the CSM had bought 6 kegs per company or some shit and also rallied up some BBQ if I recall correctly. I think that there was some COC limitations thrown in so there was someone sober to answer for anything that might have happened, but we basically ate BBQ, drank up what was provided and got some more in a coordinated supply run with empty rucksacks to the class 6, and just had a good unit time. Nobody got arrested, UCMJ'ed, or even injured since we were all together.

Doing shit as a unit like that builds comraderie amongst the unit as well as gives a release valve that otherwise would have been an uncontrolled detonation upon return from a month away from home to wherever home station was.

 

[DA SWO]

I think the drinking age should be lowered to 18 nationwide. While I would definitely agree that there would be an initial increase in incidents, I think they would end up planing out as the nostalgia wears off. I feel that too often, we as a society attempt to deal with problems with a blanket rule for everyone. Much like group punishment, it's ineffective. At 18 years old, you're deemed an adult. You can be married, purchase a house, you can have the responsibilities of children, but we don't allow them to have a beer?

I'd be curious to see if lowering the drinking age, would have a positive effect on society, in regards to people maturing at an earlier age. Right now it's normal to see people party all throughout their early 20's, and not begin to really think about life until their late 20's. I wonder if lowering the legal drinking age would let people get through that party phase at an earlier age? I know me personally, I drank underage while in the military. I did quite a bit of partying before I was 21 (perks of being stationed oversees). By the time I was actually 21, I could've cared less about going out and getting extremely drunk.

Why was the drinking age raised from 18 to 21?

 

[fox1371]

Why was the drinking age raised from 18 to 21?

I'm going to assume you're attempting to prove a point with your question...

The National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984, was passed under Reagan in an effort to reduce drunk driving fatalities. The consequences for driving intoxicated pre 1980's are much different than the consequences now. IMO this plays a major role. Of course there are issues with people breaking laws when the laws aren't strictly enforced. If murder was considered a misdemeanor, I'm sure we'd have an epidemic...But instead of merely enforcing the laws in place as well as escalating the punishment for committing said crime, we also implemented an all encompassing rule for anyone under 21. A few people fucked it up for everyone. That's the American way...let's not concentrate on the few that cause the problems. Let's put everyone in the same boat with them instead.

 

[fox1371]

Hell, why not just go back to the days of the prohibition?

 

[DA SWO]

I'm going to assume you're attempting to prove a point with your question...

The National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984, was passed under Reagan in an effort to reduce drunk driving fatalities. The consequences for driving intoxicated pre 1980's are much different than the consequences now. IMO this plays a major role. Of course there are issues with people breaking laws when the laws aren't strictly enforced. If murder was considered a misdemeanor, I'm sure we'd have an epidemic...But instead of merely enforcing the laws in place as well as escalating the punishment for committing said crime, we also implemented an all encompassing rule for anyone under 21. A few people fucked it up for everyone. That's the American way...let's not concentrate on the few that cause the problems. Let's put everyone in the same boat with them instead.

The age was raised (another Lautenberg Bill) because DUI's (per the stats I can find) were increasing about 3 times the rate of new drivers (I can't find stats earlier than 2001). Raising the age to 21 appears to have reduced DUI arrests by .5M, significant when you factor the lowered limit from .1 to .08 in many locations.
Interestingly enough, there are no prohibitions against "underage" drinking, rather the Feds will withhold highway funds if the age isn't 21, and that was the driving force behind the age increase.
You are partially correct when you say penalties are tougher, but the repeat offenders don't care (like most behavior laws).

 

[Il Duce]

Not trying to hijack or derail the thread but I think @Ranger Psych brings up an intersting point about the authority of leaders to modify rules. In my view one of the primary tasks of a commander is to manage risk. The commander is the ultimate decider - and one responsible - for the risks his/her unit accepts through policy and operations.

I wonder if lawmakers would be better served concentrating on what ordinances/laws they are willing to allow commanders discretion on rather than attempting to dictate the particular policy themselves (in this case alcohol consumption). I wonder if it would be a valuable tool for any unit if a commander at some level could authorize/restrict drugs/alcohol, licensing, and accreditation. We already do a great deal on the restrictive side through post policies but have little to no authority on the loosening of restrictions.

 

[pardus]

Not trying to hijack or derail the thread but I think @Ranger Psych brings up an intersting point about the authority of leaders to modify rules. In my view one of the primary tasks of a commander is to manage risk. The commander is the ultimate decider - and one responsible - for the risks his/her unit accepts through policy and operations.

I wonder if lawmakers would be better served concentrating on what ordinances/laws they are willing to allow commanders discretion on rather than attempting to dictate the particular policy themselves (in this case alcohol consumption). I wonder if it would be a valuable tool for any unit if a commander at some level could authorize/restrict drugs/alcohol, licensing, and accreditation. We already do a great deal on the restrictive side through post policies but have little to no authority on the loosening of restrictions.

Very interesting idea, however that would require giving power to the CO/BC/etc... to override civilian law as they see fit.
That is a huge deal, and one I would think would be highly unlikely.
What would be easier would be to lower the age to 18, and from there the commander/s would have discretion to restrict or not as they see fit.

e.g. 1st BN's alcohol policy shall be as follows, SM's aged 18-21 shall be allowed up to 6 beers or 3 harder drinks per day, on Friday and Saturday only after the duty day.
These drinks are to be brought and consumed on post at recognized bars/restaurants/class 6 or in barracks (drinking in barracks must be under the proper supervision of an NCO).
Breaches of said policy will result in disciplinary action including UCMJ proceedings being initiated against violators. A minimum punishment of 4 weekend passes being revoked, with the offender on work details during this time shall be strictly enforced.

 

[fox1371]

Very interesting idea, however that would require giving power to the CO/BC/etc... to override civilian law as they see fit.
That is a huge deal, and one I would think would be highly unlikely.
What would be easier would be to lower the age to 18, and from there the commander/s would have discretion to restrict or not as they see fit.

e.g. 1st BN's alcohol policy shall be as follows, SM's aged 18-21 shall be allowed up to 6 beers or 3 harder drinks per day, on Friday and Saturday only after the duty day.
These drinks are to be brought and consumed on post at recognized bars/restaurants/class 6 or in barracks (drinking in barracks must be under the proper supervision of an NCO).
Breaches of said policy will result in disciplinary action including UCMJ proceedings being initiated against violators. A minimum punishment of 4 weekend passes being revoked, with the offender on work details during this time shall be strictly enforced.

Does this not happen already? I recall being on base for Marine Corps Mess Nights/Balls and the drinking age being lowered to 18 for the event.

 

[pardus]

Does this not happen already? I recall being on base for Marine Corps Mess Nights/Balls and the drinking age being lowered to 18 for the event.

I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised at all. My question is though, is it legal to do so?