M9 Holster Advice

[AWP]

But you are required to have a weapon. I never worried about shoulder holstered weapons because I know they are unloaded. FOBBIT's RULE Baby!
I like the reflective belt for the weapon, any comments on it yet?

In 2004 or 2005 (my memory is slipping), Camp Cunningham at Bagram had an ECP to enter camp. The Security Forces Squadron (I think they were a very large Flight back then) would randomly check all weapons entering and exiting the camp. On any given day, 10-30% of those weapons had a round in the chamber and about 10% of those weren't on SAFE.

Somewhere around 05-06 the AF went to the Army and basically said "This is your base, but we're goinig to stop issuing our airmen weapons." The Army said that wouldn't happen. The AF tried to issue everyone M-9's...that didn't happen (The Army or logistics, I forget the cause for that decision). The AF tried to allow airmen to leave them in weapon racks...nope, Big Army said they will carry one at all times unless doing PT.

Do you know how many airmen started wearing PT's until that was policed up? I can't say that I blame the Blue for that.

Now on Bagram you have airmen walking around with ginormous pieces of duct tape in all manner of colors with the weapon's serial, owner and rank, and the shop's number. Some sport a simple, "If found, call..." and at least a senior NCo's name and number are listed. One rotation saw many of the airmen affix a tag to their front sight post with this info. (Feel free to discuss which is worse: a tag or purple/ orange/ pink/ neon green 100 mph tape)

On the Army side I'm aware of the base policies concerning weapons handling and have tried to correct MP's, officers, and soldiers when they were doing stupid shit. I've had MPs tell me to "fuck off" and that "If I mattered I'd have a weapon" or "You don't have a weapon so why do you care about the rules?"

Don't even bring up reporting any of this to my COC...went there, nothing happened, got the high blood pressure.

Until recently, the AF wasn't zeroing their weapons in country. That policy finally changed after several years where they were handed an M-16 at Bagram, maybe cleaned it once or twice, and then handed it back in at the end of their rotation.

Armed Army and AF fobbits are the devil's work. I could go on and on, but the reality is that "weapons + fobbitts = FAIL." The branch is irrelevant, I just happen to see more of the AF than the Army.

I know of one SF unit with a few ND's, one resulting in a self-inflicted 9MM to the calf by an 18A.

Stupid is EVERYWHERE....AND IT IS ARMED!

 

[Kraut783]

But you are required to have a weapon. I never worried about shoulder holstered weapons because I know they are unloaded. FOBBIT's RULE Baby!
I like the reflective belt for the weapon, any comments on it yet?

.....hehe....reflector belt.....hehe....

 

[Etype]

I think the constant game of changing the status of your weapon is cause for a lot of NDs. I have a theory that I put into practice at our VSP, and it proved to be true, at least in my small pool of subjects. We had an uplift squad of tankers, and a platoon of infantry who shared our VSP by our permission. I made a decree (speaking with an English accent) that all personal weapons shall remain loaded at all times whether they are sitting under your bed, being carried, or otherwise- you unload it to clean it, then you load it again. About 45 guys over a period of 8 months, zero NDs. It's always loaded, you're always careful with it, you're not doing the clearing ritual daily.

That's exactly what clearing a weapon into a barrel becomes, a mindless ritual- then you have guys shooting into a barrel. It's not a big deal, because you are ND'ing harmlessly into a barrel full of sand. I bet if the military mandated that all clearing be done while aiming the weapon at your knee, there would be a lot less NDs.

 

[DA SWO]

I think the constant game of changing the status of your weapon is cause for a lot of NDs. I have a theory that I put into practice at our VSP, and it proved to be true, at least in my small pool of subjects. We had an uplift squad of tankers, and a platoon of infantry who shared our VSP by our permission. I made a decree (speaking with an English accent) that all personal weapons shall remain loaded at all times whether they are sitting under your bed, being carried, or otherwise- you unload it to clean it, then you load it again. About 45 guys over a period of 8 months, zero NDs. It's always loaded, you're always careful with it, you're not doing the clearing ritual daily.

That's exactly what clearing a weapon into a barrel becomes, a mindless ritual- then you have guys shooting into a barrel. It's not a big deal, because you are ND'ing harmlessly into a barrel full of sand. I bet if the military mandated that all clearing be done while aiming the weapon at your knee, there would be a lot less NDs.

No, we'd see guys just in-country capping themselves.

 

[policemedic]

I think the constant game of changing the status of your weapon is cause for a lot of NDs. I have a theory that I put into practice at our VSP, and it proved to be true, at least in my small pool of subjects. We had an uplift squad of tankers, and a platoon of infantry who shared our VSP by our permission. I made a decree (speaking with an English accent) that all personal weapons shall remain loaded at all times whether they are sitting under your bed, being carried, or otherwise- you unload it to clean it, then you load it again. About 45 guys over a period of 8 months, zero NDs. It's always loaded, you're always careful with it, you're not doing the clearing ritual daily.

That's exactly what clearing a weapon into a barrel becomes, a mindless ritual- then you have guys shooting into a barrel. It's not a big deal, because you are ND'ing harmlessly into a barrel full of sand. I bet if the military mandated that all clearing be done while aiming the weapon at your knee, there would be a lot less NDs.

Holy shit. Common sense has been located; note the grid and pop green smoke.

 

[Ranger Psych]

We ran aircraft loaded in camp and chambered otherwise. Only issue we had was with mk19's.

While it was implemented when we started operating out of our MSS, running with a weapon inside the compound was removed by our 1SG after he saw me trucking around doing laps for time with a M67. Then again, we were no more than 2 minutes from our racks inside the compound, so with guards posted etc it was somewhat of a silly idea.

 

[pardus]

I like the reflective belt for the weapon, any comments on it yet?

No, people are too intimidated by how high speed I look.

Now on Bagram you have airmen walking around with ginormous pieces of duct tape in all manner of colors

On my way to the unit from the aircraft I saw a female with bright pink tape all over her M16, I wondered WTF was up with that. Figured she was doing disco ops.

No, we'd see guys just in-country capping themselves.

Good, they deserve it. NO excuse for a ND.

 

[0699]

A shoulder holster IS good when you ride the desk all day at the FOB, or are in PTs. Then you realize you are at a desk, on the FOB, in PTs, and don't really need a gun.

Exactly. For clarirty, I used a shoulder holster similar to the one RetPara pictured, except it was black and had a chest strap.

Some days I carried my M4 to the office, just so I didn't feel like a total office putz...

 

[0699]

Good, they deserve it. NO excuse for a ND.

Desert Storm 1990. I saw a Navy Seabee Captain discharge 2 rounds from an M9 into a clearing barrel. He was getting ready to fire off a third one, but the Marine on duty (his post was ~25 feet away; he started moving after the first round was fired) grabbed his weapon from him and removed the magazine. :-"

 

[DA SWO]

Desert Storm 1990. I saw a Navy Seabee Captain discharge 2 rounds from an M9 into a clearing barrel. He was getting ready to fire off a third one, but the Marine on duty (his post was ~25 feet away; he started moving after the first round was fired) grabbed his weapon from him and removed the magazine. :-"

2002 I saw an Army Lt do the same thing at Eagle Base in Bosnia.

 

[Etype]

Desert Storm 1990. I saw a Navy Seabee Captain discharge 2 rounds from an M9 into a clearing barrel. He was getting ready to fire off a third one, but the Marine on duty (his post was ~25 feet away; he started moving after the first round was fired) grabbed his weapon from him and removed the magazine. :-"

He was using the "clear by test fire" method, it's in the manual.

 

[Crusader74]

He was using the "clear by test fire" method, it's in the manual.

What, the whole magazine? lol

In all fairness, how long does it take to cock a weapon? Any one entering the DFAC in Butmir had to clear their weapon in a unloading bay and AFAIK there was no ND's during my rotation.

 

[Etype]

What, the whole magazine? lol

Sure.

The only reason people ND multiple times into a clearing barrel is because there's no reason not to, the bullet is going harmlessly into the dirt.

It all goes back to the clearing barrel. It's like conducting airborne operations from a helicopter, that is 8 ft off the ground- it doesn't really matter what you do, you'll be fine. The clearing barrel takes all of the danger and responsibility out of weapon handling and makes for an artificially safe environment that's not always going to be there for you.

I also don't agree with the Army socialist system where no one is allowed to be empowered by having a loaded weapon on base, in the US or overseas. Would a coward like MAJ Nidal Hassan have the gall to expose himself as an extremist pig in front of brave men and women by turning a gun on them if had known they may have potentially been carrying guns? Or would he have kept his deficiencies deep within his closet where they had been festering so far?

 

[pardus]

People cock their weapons, they just don't remove the magazine.

The problem is there is no kept standard for weapons training. Most people have pitiful weapons skills. I was shocked outside the first DFAC I was at where people had to clear their weapons. I would have failed 80 - 90% of them if I had applied my old training standards, that is literally hundreds of people per meal, officers and SNCOs included.
The problem is systematic and no one is interested in fixing it.

 

[Crusader74]

Sure.

The only reason people ND multiple times into a clearing barrel is because there's no reason not to, the bullet is going harmlessly into the dirt.

It all goes back to the clearing barrel. It's like conducting airborne operations from a helicopter- that is 10 ft off the ground. The clearing barrel takes all of the danger and responsibility out of weapon handling and makes for an artificially safe environment that's not always going to be there for you.

So they don't unload the weapon, pull the charging handle/slide to the rear and clear the action ?

 

[Etype]

They do, but having a clearing barrel eliminates any negative repercussions. They are conditioned to not be careful while doing it, because nothing can go wrong. Then one day, they are clearing their weapon (a task they have done mindlessly and carelessly for hundreds of repetitions) without the aid of a clearing barrel and BANG.

Guns are dangerous, that's the point. We should leave them that way and be careful with them, we shouldn't be trying to defang them.

On top of that, most support personnel don't understand the danger of weapons because its never been realized for them. The only battle damage they have ever seen is in pictures or videos. With modern television, we're largely immunized to pictures and videos- it means nothing. The average dude doesn't understand how terribly it really is when someone gets shot- hell, Mel Gibson's been shot a bunch of times, and he's fine.

 

[0699]

He was using the "clear by test fire" method, it's in the manual.

The funniest (or saddest; depends on your POV...) part of the story is that a few days later they took all the ammo away from sergeants and below, only to be issued back out if we left the pier, due to the number of NDs into the clearing barrel. Well the antenna farm was across the street from the MEB CP. I spent 12-15 hours a day across the street from the clearing barrel and saw a LOT of NDs. Funny part was, they were all SNCOs & officers shooting M9s into the barrel. How does taking ammo away from the troops fix the problem of SNCOs & officers having NDs?!? :ehh:

 

[Crusader74]

On top of that, most support personnel don't understand the danger of weapons because its never been realized for them. .

That is a scary statement considering the US are meant to be one of the best Armed forces in the world for training.. Is there not a centralised doctrine for rules on weapon handling?

 

[Etype]

I'm saying, they've never seen the effects of a weapon beyond rounds impacting in the dirt.

 

[Mac_NZ]

It was $1200 fine for us on the first ND with an orderly room and the conviction recorded in the individuals file (NJP? for you guys), second one would get you sent home.