National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (please review page 1)

I had to remind myself that's for soc security and not gnatsies... <headdesk> Europe majority meaning, sigh.

Still, what's up with that, they got cool blue and ships ;) Sail away from this insanity sounds about grand. Well. Not so ship mutinies. But man can't have it all.
 
Devildoc said:
Like him or lump him, Grossman has really perpetuated the whole us vs them, warrior mentality with LE. I am not sure where I stand on it; a lot of cops I know are uncomfortable with the label.
Click to expand...

His "sheep, sheepdog, wolf" thing sounds great, but it became a means of denigrating members of society while elevating others. It became a social perception instead of an analogy for what amounts to a division of labor. I remember how people who blindly followed others were lemmings, but now they are sheep. That can't be a coincidence.

I partially blame how we put veterans on an impossibly high pedestal because it perpetuated, and some revel in it, the sheep/ sheepdog social distinction. While I'm conservative, my fellow conservatives did this. Liberals aren't talking about sheep or sheepdogs...at least not in large numbers. Anecdotally, I don't know of a single left-leaning person to say they are a sheepdog.
 
AWP said:
Liberals aren't talking about sheep or sheepdogs...at least not in large numbers. Anecdotally, I don't know of a single left-leaning person to say they are a sheepdog.
Click to expand...
They're more prone to call them another kind of livestock.
 
Devildoc said:
Like him or lump him, Grossman has really perpetuated the whole us vs them, warrior mentality with LE. I am not sure where I stand on it; a lot of cops I know are uncomfortable with the label.
Click to expand...
If anything, it is a useful counter stance to consider against the now-fashionable call to defund police departments.

Grossman's focus on the safety of the LEO and highlighting of the very real threats they may face in any encounter may help bring to the public arena a long overdue question: How to encourage more proportionate police responses to less-than-lethal encounters when LEOs simultaneously face sectors of the population willing to take full and potentially lethal advantage of those efforts?
 
AWP said:
His "sheep, sheepdog, wolf" thing sounds great, but it became a means of denigrating members of society while elevating others. It became a social perception instead of an analogy for what amounts to a division of labor. I remember how people who blindly followed others were lemmings, but now they are sheep. That can't be a coincidence.

I partially blame how we put veterans on an impossibly high pedestal because it perpetuated, and some revel in it, the sheep/ sheepdog social distinction. While I'm conservative, my fellow conservatives did this. Liberals aren't talking about sheep or sheepdogs...at least not in large numbers. Anecdotally, I don't know of a single left-leaning person to say they are a sheepdog.
Click to expand...
You're thinking of it in the wrong context. Grossman wasn't breaking down members of society. His Philosophy was focused on when LEOs had to take down someone that was very bad, someone that society on its own could not handle. For those encounters where the person being made contact with wasn't your average citizen. For example, there was an incident we studied in the academy where a FL trooper was gunned down. The trooper was an excellent trooper in almost every area. He scored perfect during weapons qualification, and in every respect was a model trooper. However, when confronted with an armed suspect (that charged him firing) he balked and was gunned down. The suspect was a Vietnam Vet that charged him with an M14. There is dashcam footage and if IIRC, you can hear the trooper screaming while the suspect was cold and methodical. During the fight, the trooper was not in a warrior mindset and was overtaken by the suspect (who was in a warrior mindset). This is similar to what Grossman means when he speaks of how to take on wolves.

The problem is that some officers can't turn it on and off and eventually see everyone as a suspect and not a citizen. The training is only meant to enhance a skill set, not to supplant it. LEOs just need to remember that the warrior is only released when all other options are gone. It isn't easy, but it is necessary to fight a warrior with another warrior.
 
ke4gde said:
You're thinking of it in the wrong context. Grossman wasn't breaking down members of society. His Philosophy was focused on when LEOs had to take down someone that was very bad, someone that society on its own could not handle. For those encounters where the person being made contact with wasn't your average citizen. For example, there was an incident we studied in the academy where a FL trooper was gunned down. The trooper was an excellent trooper in almost every area. He scored perfect during weapons qualification, and in every respect was a model trooper. However, when confronted with an armed suspect (that charged him firing) he balked and was gunned down. The suspect was a Vietnam Vet that charged him with an M14. There is dashcam footage and if IIRC, you can hear the trooper screaming while the suspect was cold and methodical. During the fight, the trooper was not in a warrior mindset and was overtaken by the suspect (who was in a warrior mindset). This is similar to what Grossman means when he speaks of how to take on wolves.

The problem is that some officers can't turn it on and off and eventually see everyone as a suspect and not a citizen. The training is only meant to enhance a skill set, not to supplant it. LEOs just need to remember that the warrior is only released when all other options are gone. It isn't easy, but it is necessary to fight a warrior with another warrior.
Click to expand...
Speaking as a civilian I am uncomfortable with whole Warrior mentality training that cops receive I would prefer for them to view themselves as peacekeepers
 
ke4gde said:
You're thinking of it in the wrong context.
Click to expand...

Maybe, I'll grant that. With that said, it was drummed into heads and became a social "cool guy" thing to say and repeat. Whatever Grossman's intentions it became a perverted social construct of "us vs them." That is what it has become, no matter how it started.

Creating a mindset had the secondary outcome of creating a social division, one that shouldn't have to exist in a warrior's mind. Police training or society are so bad that our society had to turn them into "warriors?" They used to be called "peace officers" but now they are "warriors?" Warriors close with and destroy the enemy, they engage in combat. No one seriously thought that turning police into warriors or combatants was a bad idea?

Back when we served together, I bought into sheep and sheepdog. Now? Not in years, it has become something twisted and needs to go away.
 
Two separate countries now please... I would like to move to the conservative side, wherever that ends up being.

Let the fruits have their way, let the states be separate. If roughly half the country is conservative leaning and roughly half is liberal, let them have the coasts and we'll take the middle. When their utopian society outperforms ours socially and economically, they can build a huge wall to keep us out.
;-)
 

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