Novel idea for the military: no rank

[Devildoc]

An Air Force officer suggests getting rid of rank. I am at a loss for words.

Commentary: The rank structure is holding us back. It’s time for drastic change

 

[Gunz]

The problems he's pointing out probably have more to do with toxic leadership rather than rank structure.

 

[DA SWO]

China tried this IIRC, they now have ranks.

 

[SpitfireV]

Yeah I know the Chinese police did but I'm not sure about the PLA. They didn't have ranks but they did have positions of authority, which really are just de facto ranks anyway.

 

[Kraut783]

Hell, even the Federation had rank...and they weren't a military force.

 

[Board and Seize]

I haven't gotten into Deibler's dissertation yet, but the other (and much shorter) paper (~20min read) linked in the OP article is a pretty decent presentation of his argument.

I have to say, I like the way this guy thinks. His argument is a bit naive regarding the volume and vehemence of opposition it will face, but he makes some solid points.

I'll have to come back later to expand on my thoughts, but Deibler definitely deserves a more considered than anyone's presented so far.

 

[Marauder06]

I read the article. This suggestion comes up every few years and I have yet to read a convincing argument for its implementation. I look forward to reading B&S's summary of Deilber's dissertation, because I usually refrain from reading things like that. They tend to be self-aggrandizing fluff pieces that cherry-pick data to support a conclusion that was determined before the candidate even started research.

But who knows, maybe this one is different.

China tried this IIRC, they now have ranks.

Yeah I know the Chinese police did but I'm not sure about the PLA. They didn't have ranks but they did have positions of authority, which really are just de facto ranks anyway.

I think, but I'm not certain, that I read in a Korean War history (This Kind of War?) that in the early days the PLA didn't really have ranks, leaders were chosen by committee or popular acclaim or something. I think that kind of decentralization might work well in an insurgency, but if you want to run a large, effective, modern army you need a large, effective, modern bureaucracy, and people need to know where they fit in that overarching order. This is why, AFAIK, China now has a military organized much the same as ours. Why? Best practices.

One of the reasons our system works so well is that we have the luxury of specialization. "Leadership" is a specialization. One of the great things with the formal split between the Officer and NCO Corps in our military is that each gets to concentrate on what are very different aspects of leadership, and at the same time they don't compete with each other for promotions or positions. Imagine what the relationship would be like if you knew that at any moment you could be replaced by the guy in the next cubicle, who is technically your subordinate, because he can now code marginally better than you can. How much are you going to trust him, how collaborative are you going to be, how ready are you going to be to assume prudent risk if you know it could torpedo your chances of keeping your job or to progress to the next one?

 

[pardus]

I think, but I'm not certain, that I read in a Korean War history (This Kind of War?) that in the early days the PLA didn't really have ranks, leaders were chosen by committee or popular acclaim or something. I think that kind of decentralization might work well in an insurgency, but if you want to run a large, effective, modern army you need a large, effective, modern bureaucracy, and people need to know where they fit in that overarching order. This is why, AFAIK, China now has a military organized much the same as ours. Why? Best practices.

During the Boer war, the Boers had Commandos (a unit, IIRC around a company size, later much reduced in size), the Commandos elected their leaders, which was often disastrous at the start of the war as the men were armed civilians. Things settled into place eventually and the Commandos operated efficiently under great leadership until the end of the war. But as @Marauder06 wrote, this was largely a guerilla war.

 

[AWP]

Aircrew in charge of a comm squadron, unless he's prior enlisted who went comm? His backstory must be amazing.

 

[digrar]

I'm pretty sure everyone in the RAAF calls each other by their first name. Just one of the reasons we call them the militant arm of the Australian Public Service.

 

[Gunz]

Unlike the NVA, the Viet Cong didn't have a conventional rank structure. And arguably they were one of the more organized and successful guerrilla organizations in history. But where rank did not exist, certainly indoctrination and political structure did to the point where everybody knew where they stood in the hierarchy.

I haven't gotten into Deibler's dissertation yet, but the other (and much shorter) paper (~20min read) linked in the OP article is a pretty decent presentation of his argument.

I have to say, I like the way this guy thinks. His argument is a bit naive regarding the volume and vehemence of opposition it will face, but he makes some solid points.

I'll have to come back later to expand on my thoughts, but Deibler definitely deserves a more considered than anyone's presented so far.

You're trained to operate within a small unit and I can see where something like this would work in SOF. After all, Carlson greatly relaxed rank in his original Raider Bn. But I can't see it working well on a the large scale among conventional formations.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

<SNIP>I'll have to come back later to expand on my thoughts, but Deibler definitely deserves a more considered than anyone's presented so far.

Looking forward to reading this.

 

[Marauder06]

Unlike the NVA, the Viet Cong didn't have a conventional rank structure. And arguably they were one of the more organized and successful guerrilla organizations in history. But where rank did not exist, certainly indoctrination and political structure did to the point where everybody knew where they stood in the hierarchy.

You're trained to operate within a small unit and I can see where something like this would work in SOF. After all, Carlson greatly relaxed rank in his original Raider Bn. But I can't see it working well on a the large scale among conventional formations.

I agree and think that's a fantastic example. IIRC they won the war by rolling tanks through Saigon under the direction of a professional, hierarchical army. Mao even says you go guerrilla to get to conventional.

 

[pardus]

I agree and think that's a fantastic example. IIRC they won the war by rolling tanks through Saigon under the direction of a professional, hierarchical army. Mao even says you go guerrilla to get to conventional.

I believe it was the NVA, not the VC who had the tanks. IIRC the NVA took the lead in the war in the south after Tet, when the VC took a beating that decimated them. A beating they never recovered from.
But it been a while and I'm a bit rusty on the history.

 

[Marauder06]

I believe it was the NVA, not the VC who had the tanks. IIRC the NVA took the lead in the war in the south after Tet, when the VC took a beating that decimated them. A beating they never recovered from.
But it been a while and I'm a bit rusty on the history.

Right- I think we're saying the same thing. "They" (the north) won through the NVA.

 

[AWP]

The NVA most assuredly had ranks and a hierarchy.

I don't see how you can structure any organization without rank or some type of tier system.

 

[Marauder06]

^read that guy's PhD and I'm sure you'll be fully educated on it!

 

[Teufel]

Carlson relaxed the rank structure but I don't think there was any confusion about who was in command.

All these articles focus on company grade officers. The officer corps is designed to groom young men and women to become senior field grade officers and General Officers. This takes quite a bit of time. A senior NCO can certainly handle a platoon or company but they are not generally trained to command and plan at the operational level of war unless they accept a commission and work their way up the officer ranks.

 

[BloodStripe]

I do think that as more and more people become educated, we should revisit the way officer's are selected. Perhaps it is time to move to a system where you must be enlisted first.

 

[digrar]

I served with plenty of shit officers who had been in the ranks first. And some good ones. And some good ones that were direct entry officers. For mine, prior service is not a magic bullet.