NOW can we be done with the silly, "women in combat roles" debate?

The 40% is the entrance requirement for police recruits, 50% is required to graduate. Officers are required to do the same job but the standards are very different.
 

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The number come from the Cooper Standards so the numbers are probably very similar across the nation. That was the idea any way. I meant different standards for men and women. VSP and Burlington PD require recruits to be at the 50th% to get in to the academy, most other departments require a recruit meet the academy standards.
 
What a crock of shit. My solution: Give those 55% that can't do them a certain deadline to do them by, or they get separated. End of story. They knew this was coming so they have NO excuse. There are pull up bars all over the friggin place. And I'm sure there are a lot of Marines who would have helped them learn how to do pull ups, had they asked. Folks who enjoy their fitness like to share their fitness experience and whenever I wanted advice or assistance, I got it.

This is just like the overweight Marines who have to lose the pounds in a certain time frame or get separated. If/Then = Consequence.

Put on your big girl panties and get up on that damned bar.
 
lindy said:
Really? How so?

My experience in OEF attached to an ODA totally refutes your statement (e.g. Targeting, patrol, gathering intel or evidence, SSE, etc.).
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Yes that stuff would be "similar". However lets look at patrolling specifically I'm willing to be you put many a click on your feet as oppose to having a patrol car to get you there before those activities that are cop-like took place. Even when a vehicle was in use I bet your standard loadout made you a lot wider, heavier, and more cumbersome vs a standard cop; while being packed in there with some other "mission essential" equipment that conveniently never left said vehicle or even just you and your boys packed in there.
 
lindy said:
Really? How so?

My experience in OEF attached to an ODA totally refutes your statement (e.g. Targeting, patrol, gathering intel or evidence, SSE, etc.).
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Your experiences probably do. However, each of the mission types listed differ in objective of the utilization and likely the unmounted (on-foot) travel duration and distance. Being an old fart out of military service since 1996 I clearly cannot throw up any of my experience, but I do know the majority of law enforce patrols done by law enforcement officer in the United States are not full combat load foot patrols and such patrols are not of the extended duration and frequency of most unmounted (0n-foot) combat patrols.
 
lindy said:
I just checked FBI standards, which have a M vs F scale :(:

https://www.fbijobs.gov/11131.asp
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That's not the only thing in the government that has different standards for males/females... :hmm:

JHD said:
As a female, I completely understand the desire for parity. BUT, if you can't do three pull ups (or pull your injured comrades to safety when they need you), you shouldn't be in that role. This makes me so mad that the powers that be don't get it. The funny thing is, I don't think it is the female marines screaming for it to be done. It seems like it is the PC police trying to make sure things are "fair and balanced".

I would hate to think that my nephew, son, cousin, father, uncle, friend, etc., was counting on someone half their size to get them out of a shitstorm.
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Wait. YOU'RE A GIRL?!? :-o
 
@policemedic, being that you are a cop and 11B whats your thoughts on patrol cop work vs grunt work, as far as physical activity levels, types of physical fitness need, etc?

FYI: guys I'm not try to pit one against the other here. Just think using the PFT from LE as an example for MIL id a bit silly, especially in comparison to the Infantry. Also that the cooper cut PFT (pretty well the standard for LE) has different scoring for male & female.

Something also I'm wondering is do SWAT teams/schools drop the standard to a female standard for prerequisite/assignment/graduation?

Its been about 8 years since I've been to any SWAT schools, but I don't remember a different standard for male and female. However, no females attended any of the schools/courses that I did, so I'm wondering?
 
Being a cop is no where near as physical demanding as being in the infantry. Being a cop can be physically demanding and cops need to be able to fight. Fitness obviously plays an important part in survival. I've been a cop here in VT since '92. I'm sure walking a foot post in a large city is more physically demanding than the single office cars I've spent most of my career in.
 
My agency conducts its own training academy. Standards are enforced equally across the board for all ages and all genders. The women that wear our uniform are very few but very capable.
 
The fitness of current U.s Armed Forces is overall much less than was put into the field to fight the fight during WWII, Korean War, and Southeast Asia conflicts. The problem is not only has China sustained fitness standards, the education standards put out better educated students than the U.S. education system. Thus conversation of any U.S. service member male or female unable to do three or more chin-ups is a very sad state of combat readiness to be discussing.
 
JAB said:
@policemedic, being that you are a cop and 11B whats your thoughts on patrol cop work vs grunt work, as far as physical activity levels, types of physical fitness need, etc?

FYI: guys I'm not try to pit one against the other here. Just think using the PFT from LE as an example for MIL id a bit silly, especially in comparison to the Infantry. Also that the cooper cut PFT (pretty well the standard for LE) has different scoring for male & female.

Something also I'm wondering is do SWAT teams/schools drop the standard to a female standard for prerequisite/assignment/graduation?

Its been about 8 years since I've been to any SWAT schools, but I don't remember a different standard for male and female. However, no females attended any of the schools/courses that I did, so I'm wondering?
Click to expand...

There's no question but that being an Infantryman is more physically demanding than being a cop. Now, there are times when things even out--I've had to climb to the top of a 25 story building, for instance--but the Infantry regularly demands more effort than police work does.

Police work is to a large degree somewhat sedentary. Most cops drive cars most of the day, and get out when/as necessary. When physical exertion is necessary, it's often an all-out effort, but if police work is done correctly you don't fight too many people (even when working really bad neighborhoods). Now, I'm talking about patrol division cops here. Detectives and other investigators are even more sedentary by the nature of their work.

Now, I've walked footbeats all day, and that does suck a bit. Soft body armor and the Batman belt do wear on you after 8 hours. But it's not rucking.

With that said, the need to be physically fit is equal. Accomplishing that goal happens much more frequently in the Infantry than it does in America's PDs. And that's a shame. There are any number of reasons for it--some are even valid--but we must work harder to stay fit despite the challenges we face that our military brethren don't.

Harmony Church was exponentially more physically taxing than the police academy, even though the academy was longer. In fairness, the academy was much more intellectually taxing.

We've had women on our SWAT team, and so does Philadelphia. I know one or two female SWAT cops with more shootings under their belt than most male cops, and I'll trust them with my life. They've earned their place. We don't alter our standards for selection on our team; the PT test is the PT test and there's only one standard. The shooting test is the shooting test etc. I can't speak for all SWAT training schools, but the Philadelphia Police SWAT school has unisex standards and so does the NTOA school.

Even in SWAT the physical demands don't compare to the Infantry (although there are exceptions). The gear is the same; my vest and plates weigh as much now as they ever did (and they're set up about the same). My aid bag damn sure isn't any lighter. But I get to drop the aid bag outside the objective now. I don't need to hump it for 25 miles in less than 8 hours to make sure the unit is certified good to go like I used to. Even on long operations like barricades the physical stress is mostly from wearing the gear, carrying a shield, porting windows or whatever. It's not the same as doing a long movement over shit terrain and then doing a raid. Teams swap out and relieve each other; the concept of not sleeping for 24 or more hours during an operation is completely foreign to LE.
 

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