Operation Red Wing article

[Kraut783]

Interesting read....this community has spoken about this in the past.

https://www.politico.com/news/magaz...ion-red-wings-lone-survivor-luttrell-00833548

 

[Ooh-Rah]

That’s one of the longest articles I’ve taken the time to read. Fascinating, believable, and very sad.

 

[SOSTCRNA]

Just finished, very interesting read. They were actually easier on Luttrell than than I anticipated.

 

[AWP]

I thought it did a pretty good job of exposing problems with the mission and people without sensationalism. The article however contradicts comments Luttrell made on a podcast over how the book came to be. Luttrell's version on the podcast is almost 180 degrees from what's printed in the article.

One point it made which I've never heard is there's no evidence of MANPADS being used, or even being available. A couple of DEVGRU guys, including Rob O'Neill (I know, I know) said they were pulled from the QRF bird by their leadership over intel related to MANPADs. They went on to say that's what downed Turbine 33.

We will never know with certainty what happened out there and in the aftermath until Luttrell comes clean. There's enough evidence to paint a pretty bleak picture of what happened, but I don't ever see Luttrell being 100% truthful.

 

[Devildoc]

That article was pretty objective and didn't appear to have a bias or agenda.

I don't know if Luttrell lied or was biased by first-person narrative in stress (we see it all the time from victims of trauma and crime). @AWP , I don't know if he thinks he's being truthful or has some sort of singular Mandela effect or memory fabrication, or if he's doubling down on lies he knows are lies.

I do know the Marines' perspective, and that was a) they (NSW participation) weren't needed, b) they weren't prepared or trained, c) they didn't listen.

 

[AWP]

That article was pretty objective and didn't appear to have a bias or agenda.

I don't know if Luttrell lied or was biased by first-person narrative in stress (we see it all the time from victims of trauma and crime). @AWP , I don't know if he thinks he's being truthful or has some sort of singular Mandela effect or memory fabrication, or if he's doubling down on lies he knows are lies.

I do know the Marines' perspective, and that was a) they (NSW participation) weren't needed, b) they weren't prepared or trained, c) they didn't listen.

I have empathy for Luttrell for the reasons you described above. Going through that, his actions (whatever they may be), the loss of his friends, etc. That's traumatic, that's major trauma.

What gives me pause is that his story has changed, even in the face of conflicting info, and to the book...that's a story already told by other sources, Marcus finally admitted to what's been published. I can understand or excuse some of the lapses, but others? He didn't misspeak.

It's a rough topic.

 

[Devildoc]

I have empathy for Luttrell for the reasons you described above. Going through that, his actions (whatever they may be), the loss of his friends, etc. That's traumatic, that's major trauma.

What gives me pause is that his story has changed, even in the face of conflicting info, and to the book...that's a story already told by other sources, Marcus finally admitted to what's been published. I can understand or excuse some of the lapses, but others? He didn't misspeak.

It's a rough topic.

It is definitely a rough topic, goes in the same file as the whole Slabinski/Chapman thing...differing perspectives, lies, conflicting info. It's like peeling an onion.

We've come to a point where our first reaction to anything a SEAL puts out is disbelief, only because we've so many examples to draw from. I hate that it's gotten to that point.

 

[AWP]

It is definitely a rough topic, goes in the same file as the whole Slabinski/Chapman thing...differing perspectives, lies, conflicting info. It's like peeling an onion.

We've come to a point where our first reaction to anything a SEAL puts out is disbelief, only because we've so many examples to draw from. I hate that it's gotten to that point.

I've been very hard on SEALs and I have not denied my stance, nor my reasons. The community's behavior isn't just a meme, even SEALs are making fun of their community. Not joking, seriously laughing at their community's rep for publicity and straight up lying. And not the Eric Deming's out there, guys like Andy Stumpf and Mike Ritland.

Back to Marcus, he's admitted on several occasions to skipping 3 days of BUD/S using his twin brother to stand in for those days. Imagine doing that in other programs' selection processes.

SEALs cannot get out of their own way and even they are admitting the community has a problem. One major point I think people are overlooking, not the Deming's and Cole's out there, but SEALs in general. Their senior officers suck. Their O-6's and above are morally bankrupt and the cause of some shenanigans. That doesn't receive enough coverage.

 

[Devildoc]

I've been very hard on SEALs and I have not denied my stance, nor my reasons. The community's behavior isn't just a meme, even SEALs are making fun of their community. Not joking, seriously laughing at their community's rep for publicity and straight up lying. And not the Eric Deming's out there, guys like Andy Stumpf and Mike Ritland.

Back to Marcus, he's admitted on several occasions to skipping 3 days of BUD/S using his twin brother to stand in for those days. Imagine doing that in other programs' selection processes.

SEALs cannot get out of their own way and even they are admitting the community has a problem. One major point I think people are overlooking, not the Deming's and Cole's out there, but SEALs in general. Their senior officers suck. Their O-6's and above are morally bankrupt and the cause of some shenanigans. That doesn't receive enough coverage.

100% agree.

One of my best friends was a SEAL (now retired, he was a corpsman too and went to BUDS pre-SO rating). He disassociates from the community. He's also burned bridges calling out bullshit when he saw it.

The NSW is a clown show, and it's true they cannot get out of their own way when admitting they have problems. It's like someone with substance abuse admitting they have an addiction while they are looking for their next fix. I also agree the senior leadership is full of shitbags who try to say the right thing in public then do the whole wink-wink-nudge-nudge thing with their frat bro's. It's infuriating.

I am hopeful that as we get further away from GWOT and these people retire we'll see a change in their now-very-public culture.

One of my biases is having a seat at the table with people in their medic program leadership and seeing the hubris and arrogance that their skills just can't back up. The sooner they blow up that program and go back to SOCM the better.

 

[Teufel]

It is probably impossible for him to revisit this incident with any honesty at this point. At the most altruistic level, it would devastate families to reimagine the events that lead to the death of their loved ones. This also puts a question mark next to the validity of any NSW valor award given the heavy command influence here to upgrade awards absent any facts to substantiate these claims. It’s easier to close the book on this tragedy and file in under young adult fiction. At a more selfish level, Luttrel built his entire post Navy career on this lie, apparently with command endorsement. This fiction is part of his identity at this point and is so interwoven into his personal story that he may even believe it himself. I suspect that we will eventually accept the truth here and collectively choose to ignore it.

 

[Teufel]

I know a Marine who started a very successful non-profit to help veterans deal with combat stress. He made the reasonable claim that he served as a Force Recon Marine and deployed with JSOC. A quick search will indicate that he was part of a reserve Force Recon unit. It turns out, however, that he failed BRC (and dive) and never earned the Recon MOS. It’s all on his training record. He stayed at the recon unit because reserve units can’t boot you because of the way the contracts work. Then he picks up an overseas contract supporting a SOF unit. There is no way for him to walk this back and he does a lot of good for people so everyone just kind of accepts it. Not everyone of course, but he was a guest of the Marine Corps at the official 250th anniversary celebration.

 

[AWP]

I know a Marine who started a very successful non-profit to help veterans deal with combat stress. He made the reasonable claim that he served as a Force Recon Marine and deployed with JSOC. A quick search will indicate that he was part of a reserve Force Recon unit. It turns out, however, that he failed BRC (and dive) and never earned the Recon MOS. It’s all on his training record. He stayed at the recon unit because reserve units can’t boot you because of the way the contracts work. Then he picks up an overseas contract supporting a SOF unit. There is no way for him to walk this back and he does a lot of good for people so everyone just kind of accepts it. Not everyone of course, but he was a guest of the Marine Corps at the official 250th anniversary celebration.

This reminds me of a scene in Mad Men where the main character is posing as a Korean War vet. Someone finds out and goes to management. They dismiss the complaint because the main character makes them so much money that no one cares what he claims.

 

[Devildoc]

There is a spectrum of this kind of thing, pure outright lying and stolen valor on one end, and first-person stress narrative on the other, with everything else falling in the middle. I get the first-person stress narrative, I see this every day: "I fell 20 feet." No, it was 5 feet. "The car was going 60 mph." No, the car was going 20 mph. They aren't lying, the stress of the trauma just changes your narrative. I give vets who were in combat a little leeway because of this. Shit, I misremember things all the time.

This is different from the overt lying, whether it's Luttrell (or others) refusing to acknowledge that he's been caught per @AWP comment or the quasi-stolen valor Marine per @Teufel comment. That may be a whole other thread, deep diving into why people feel compelled to have to do this. I go from mad to sad to mad with these folks.

 

[Kraut783]

Perception can very well be reality in one's mind....in law enforcement we see this everyday, with victims, Police and Fire. I don't know how many times where an officer under a stress situation has reported X, but the body worn camera will show something entirely different.

 

[amlove21]

Seems like a good time to put this in here... Jon Harmon was the guy that ran recovery for Turbine and Red Wings from the JOC... quite literally one of the first people to look at the screen and go, "Hey... we have a PR situation right now."

Reading the article and hearing what Jon has to say make for an interesting contrast/compare.

 

[Marauder06]

It was interesting to me that Murphy accidentally shot another SEAL and they let him stay on the team.

 

[Box]

This seems pretty clearly an issue that will never be balanced. Enough bullshit has been spread at this point that even if The Truth™ was offered - nobody is going to believe it. Every bit of information ever offered is going to be looked at with a grain of disbelief.

The sad part is - like a lot of what goes on inside the US government - good men have been reduced to what amounts to a "what difference at this point does it make" moment.

It was almost by accident that it came to public knowledge that the story being told was bullshit. Everything going forward will be forever clouded in doubt.
And so what?

Good men died bad deaths - continuously dragging the event into the public eye can't possibly be fun for the friends and family that are forced to periodically relive the event - every time with some slightly different flavor to The Truth™ that they are having forced on them.

 

[amlove21]

It was interesting to me that Murphy accidentally shot another SEAL and they let him stay on the team.

Slabinsky told that story verbatim at the Navy PLC in 2015, which I attended. Cool course, Slab's talk (at the time) was motivating and seemed genuine. Crazy to look at what we learned and where we are now.

 

[TLDR20]

I think I’ve said it before, but some of my SUT cadre were just back from Afghanistan and had participated in the rescue and were active in the region at the time. They did a fantastic debrief of the mission and highlighted all the things they did poorly. It was used as an example of what not to do, and a mission so poorly planned shouldn’t have passed any scrutiny.

 

[Teufel]

There is a spectrum of this kind of thing, pure outright lying and stolen valor on one end, and first-person stress narrative on the other, with everything else falling in the middle. I get the first-person stress narrative, I see this every day: "I fell 20 feet." No, it was 5 feet. "The car was going 60 mph." No, the car was going 20 mph. They aren't lying, the stress of the trauma just changes your narrative. I give vets who were in combat a little leeway because of this. Shit, I misremember things all the time.

This is different from the overt lying, whether it's Luttrell (or others) refusing to acknowledge that he's been caught per @AWP comment or the quasi-stolen valor Marine per @Teufel comment. That may be a whole other thread, deep diving into why people feel compelled to have to do this. I go from mad to sad to mad with these folks.

This is a natural outcome when we have monetized service, especially valorous service, through social media engagement. We have created a military influencer marketplace that indirectly encourages exaggeration and fraud.