Orlando shooting

[Brill]

"The police are too militarized."
Months later, Pulse happens
"Why didn't the police do more?"

I'll admit I don't have answers to this conundrum, but America needs to fish or cut bait on this issue. LEO's need more training (duh), but I dare say agencies need to rethink how they handle these shootings. I think we saw a "one size fits all" approach in ORL and I don't see how that's the right answer. TTP's and policies need to change because the world has changed. Bureaucratic inertia may keep a ship on course, but LE agencies should start thinking along new, and grim, lines.

My understanding from press reports is that he had IS videos, propaganda, etc on a device (laptop, phone, or something).

If Ft Hood, Boston, Chattanooga, San Bernadino, etc all had one thing in common is all the attackers had similar shit on their computers/phones.

FBI & DHS, FUCKING START THERE!

If you can nab kiddie porn shitbags who trade crap via the dark web, YOU CAN FUCKING TRACK AND IDENT THESE PEOPLE TOO!

You are CHOSING not to...for bullshit political reasons passed down by your political appointee directors. I guarantee-fucking-tee there are MORE G-men penetrating "right-wing groups" (tea party and veteran groups) than CONUS-based Islamic groups.

I challenge any federal LEO here to prove me wrong.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I'm in no position to criticize, but this discussion goes all the way back to Columbine. I thought I had read that police forces were updating ROE when it come to these types of situations. Instead, the comments from Orlando PD are nearly identical to those of the police this week.

From Columbine
The sheriff's department also noted it was afraid to send paramedics or the SWAT team in to find Sanders right away because of concerns about bombs and potential "booby traps" planted by the gunmen in and around the high school.

Columbine Officers Under Fire

 

[TLDR20]

My understanding from press reports is that he had IS videos, propaganda, etc on a device (laptop, phone, or something).

If Ft Hood, Boston, Chattanooga, San Bernadino, etc all had one thing in common is all the attackers had similar shit on their computers/phones.

FBI & DHS, FUCKING START THERE!

If you can nab kiddie porn shitbags who trade crap via the dark web, YOU CAN FUCKING TRACK AND IDENT THESE PEOPLE TOO!

You are CHOSING not to...for bullshit political reasons passed down by your political appointee directors. I guarantee-fucking-tee there are MORE G-men penetrating "right-wing groups" (tea party and veteran groups) than CONUS-based Islamic groups.

I challenge any federal LEO here to prove me wrong.

You guarantee? Then demand proof to the contrary? That isn't the way it works.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

guarantee-fucking-tee there are MORE G-men penetrating "right-wing groups" (tea party and veteran groups) than CONUS-based Islamic groups.

I challenge any federal LEO here to prove me wrong.

Dude, you can't do that. Your claim about other groups having more federal/LEO infiltration than Muslim groups might even be right, but throwing it out there and then asking someone else to prove you wrong is like claimibg a theory about 9-11, or Kennedy, or the moon landing and then putting the onus on everyone else to prove the theory is wrong.

To add - TLDR hit this above while I was typing.

 

[policemedic]

You guarantee? Then demand proof to the contrary? That isn't the way it works.

You make the claim and the onus to defend it falls on you. That's how I was taught.

 

[policemedic]

When someone has just committed mass murder and takes hostages, and there are very probably wounded with him that are bleeding out, he needs to be taken out. I think what a lot of people don't understand (LEOs included) is that this is more of a military situation than a law enforcement one.Law Enforcement is not trained or equipped to handle it. And unless some magic excuse comes out, this is a perfect example of that.

What's the basis of the expertise on which you base these broad brush comments?

 

[DocIllinois]

You make the claim and the onus to defend it falls on you. That's how I was taught.

True, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needed to support it.

Not necessarily to dog pile but I'm interested in what underlies this one, too.

 

[Kraut783]

unfortunately, the FBI JTTF's work in the classified world, so...you will never be able to know if you are right or not.

 

[Brill]

unfortunately, the FBI JTTF's work in the classified world, so...you will never be able to know if you are right or not.

I'm not talking "joint" anything leveraging other agencies but strictly DOJ's current capabilities. I'm talking about using current tech, manpower, and TTPs used to catch pedophiles be used against CONUS-based Islamic fighters to DETECT known activity that precludes domestic attacks.

Why is NBC's to catch a predator so successful?

 

[Kraut783]

Lindy,

Just answering your "I guarantee-fucking-tee there are MORE G-men penetrating "right-wing groups" (tea party and veteran groups) than CONUS-based Islamic groups." statement.

also, the investigation arm of the FBI for counterterrorism is the JTTF's....DOJ is only the prosecuting arm. I know you meant DOJ as a whole....but wanted to clarify.

 

[Brill]

CONUS terror arrests since 9/11 as of June 9: 86

The Islamic State’s suspected inroads into America

Child sex abuse PROSECUTIONS in Federal court in 2006: 2,039

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Federal Prosecution of Child Sex Exploitation Offenders, 2006

You tell me where our national priority is.

 

[nobodythank you]

I'm in no position to criticize, but this discussion goes all the way back to Columbine. I thought I had read that police forces were updating ROE when it come to these types of situations. Instead, the comments from Orlando PD are nearly identical to those of the police this week.

From Columbine
The sheriff's department also noted it was afraid to send paramedics or the SWAT team in to find Sanders right away because of concerns about bombs and potential "booby traps" planted by the gunmen in and around the high school.

Columbine Officers Under Fire

They have been updated since then. Interestingly enough, it was this incident that changed the playbook on response to active shooters. Prior to Columbine the standard approach was to create a perimeter (while the shooter was active), secure the area, and await the arrival of SWAT. This changed quickly afterwards, and was part of the justification for better arming and training of patrol officers. That is why now, the first responding officers on scene immediately engage the active shooter. Just as the off duty officer did when shots rang out initially. An excellent point to bring up nonetheless.

 

[AWP]

They have been updated since then. Interestingly enough, it was this incident that changed the playbook on response to active shooters. Prior to Columbine the standard approach was to create a perimeter (while the shooter was active), secure the area, and await the arrival of SWAT. This changed quickly afterwards, and was part of the justification for better arming and training of patrol officers. That is why now, the first responding officers on scene immediately engage the active shooter. Just as the off duty officer did when shots rang out initially. An excellent point to bring up nonetheless.

That's what the off duty cop did, but what did the first on duty officers do in response?

 

[nobodythank you]

That's what the off duty cop did, but what did the first on duty officers do in response?

I don't believe we know yet, and there in lies the problem with speculation. The first on duty officers (first three or four) should have gone in to support the officer working the detail. With the follow on officers establishing a perimeter and attempting to provide first aid and casualty evacuation. We won't know until the investigation is over and the after action review is released.

 

[Etype]

...However, your responses have shown a misinformation as to the realities and protocols for active shooter responses.

Let me ask you this. Would you be happier if the cops rushed in under fire and ignored the threat to provide aid?

I would argue that it's much worse when policies and procedures, rather than negligence, lead to loss of life.

No, I would rather they not taken 3 hours to act.

I would have like to have seen it resolved in 1 hour. Then the headline might read something like, '30 Killed, including 5 Police Officers, in Orlando.'

For 3 hours, 100+ people were neither protected nor served. The time when they were most in need, help was in no hurry.

Whether it was protocol, negligence, or cowardice- a number of those 49 people died while Police stood idle outside.

 

[nobodythank you]

Everything...

Respectfully, you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Which is sad because I respect what you say in most threads. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess. You think you can do it better? By all means put on the badge.

You are certainty entitled to your opinion, however incorrect and misguided it may be. Good luck in life and stay safe.

 

[Kraut783]

it's our job to go in....even when it is unsafe, lives are on the line. I will be very interested in the timeline...and what the investigation shows.

Now, if it was a building on fire, fuck that....

*just kidding, old FD vs PD joke.

 

[policemedic]

it's our job to go in....even when it is unsafe, lives are on the line. I will be very interested in the timeline...and what the investigation shows.

Now, if it was a building on fire, fuck that....

*just kidding, old FD vs PD joke.

 

[Etype]

You think you can do it better? By all means put on the badge.

I would love to help out, but I'm busy for the foreseeable future.

 

[mb]

Here's where the LE attitude toward the situation is dead wrong:

He stops shooting after killing several people. A jilted lover who goes into his/her spouses workplace, offs him/her, and takes hostages, is a barricaded suspect. It's possible that he has no qualms with the rest of the people there, and while still a danger to them and himself, could possibly be talked down. The Orlando shooter was a TERRORIST. The chance that he will start shooting hostages again is close to 100%. The chance he'll give up is close to 0. If you're lucky, he'll release a few hostages and make the room less crowded, but if he's talking, the time should be used to setup the breach and take him out at the earliest opportunity (which doesn't take 3 hours). The difference between the military and LE in this situation is that the military is willing to take casualties. If legal considerations factors into the Orlando PD's decision making process at all, that's a tragedy for the hostages and victims.

I take nothing away from the bravery of the cops that fought with the gunman initially, and the SWAT officers that took him out. That said, no, this was nothing like other shootings and hostage scenarios we've seen in the U.S. before. Lots ot firsts here. This was a motivated terrorist with the goal and means to kill as many people as possible. And law enforcement isn't trained and equipped for a situation like this. The kind of precision shooting, mentality and the intensity of training needed to have even a fighting chance of dealing with these situations is only found in a select few units in the military and FBI HRT.

The cops you spoke to were correct. It was a barricaded suspect with hostages. In order to save the hostages he had, it was necessary to get assets into position while negotiating. With hostages are in play, the officers and administration must also be concerned with legal matters regarding how they respond to the barricaded suspect. They could be held criminally and civilly liable for gross misconduct/negligence regarding the hostages. The same is not true of the military when conducting operations overseas in combat zones. Generally speaking, the military is free form local prosecution and only answers to the UCMJ.

This was not a military situation in any way shape or form. If it were then the military would have had jurisdiction and all domestic laws would have been suspended. While the various terrorist attacks on home soil may constitute a war (in an abstract sense), this situation was not a war, nor was it a war zone in and of itself. This attack was no different than any other shooting/hostage scenario this country has seen in the last 30-40 years. The only thing that was different here was the motivation for the attack compared to other situations. While I completely agree that LE are not trained the same as the military, LE is generally equipped to handle these types of scenarios as they usually out number, and out gun the opposition while controlling the surrounding area.

If there is blame to assign, it rests with the club owner, the FBI, and DHS for the various background investigations that were conducted that turned up red flags on the suspect.