My views on the suitability of law enforcement for battling a hard-core terrorist while there are innocent bystanders... they didn't materialize out of thin air, but I'm not getting into my own experiences on the board. Sorry.
Orlando shooting
- Thread starter Brill
- Start date
policemedic
Verified SWAT
Your views are your own, regardless of origin or application to actual domestic law enforcement situations. You're entitled to them. I understand the reticence to discuss certain things; that's why you haven't seen any vetted SWAT officers commenting substantively on the response to Pulse or active shooter/barricade/HR TTPs generally.
However, implying that you know how a SWAT team--in fact, virtually every SWAT team--should operate in a situation similar to Orlando because you disagree with the decisions OPD (as defined and separate from OPD SWAT) made is a stretch that would strain Mr. Fantastic. The idea that only HRT and a small number of other teams have the capability to successfully resolve a situation like this holds as much water as my assessment of, I don't know, what a SOT-A's abilities are and how they function in a deployed setting.
I submit to you that fighting terrorists abroad is a wholly different affair than dealing with them domestically. The goal of protecting innocents remains the same, but the modalities used must be tailored to the ROE extant in that AO.
ETA: In the initial phases this was not a SWAT issue.
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My primary question about the incident is: How many people died between SWAT arriving on scene, and the resolution of the incident?
I think you're missing my point that this isn't a SWAT situation, and isn't a domestic law enforcement situation. Posse Comitatus and the sheer size of our country make it so that local PDs will be the ones to respond to these types of incidents unless they drag on for an extended amount of time. Unfortunately it's something that local law enforcement (and their SWAT teams) are ill-prepared for, despite what members of both communities might think, and it's kind of ridiculous to imply they are prepared for it. This type of incident hasn't been seen before in the United States, and it appears on the surface like more people may have gotten killed because of policies and decisions that are tailored to what law enforcement does have experience with.
Attacking whatever second-hand knowledge you can glean of (a few years of) my personal experience doesn't change the validity of my concerns, and my concern is that local law enforcement are out of their depth when it comes to an actual terrorist attack... and that will continue to be a problem if these types of attacks continue on U.S. soil. I wouldn't comment without some relevant knowledge and experience. I appreciate what police and SWAT cops do. Don't take it personally.
I think you're missing my point that this isn't a SWAT situation, and isn't a domestic law enforcement situation. Posse Comitatus and the sheer size of our country make it so that local PDs will be the ones to respond to these types of incidents unless they drag on for an extended amount of time. Unfortunately it's something that local law enforcement (and their SWAT teams) are ill-prepared for, despite what members of both communities might think, and it's kind of ridiculous to imply they are prepared for it. This type of incident hasn't been seen before in the United States, and it appears on the surface like more people may have gotten killed because of policies and decisions that are tailored to what law enforcement does have experience with.
Attacking whatever second-hand knowledge you can glean of (a few years of) my personal experience doesn't change the validity of my concerns, and my concern is that local law enforcement are out of their depth when it comes to an actual terrorist attack... and that will continue to be a problem if these types of attacks continue on U.S. soil. I wouldn't comment without some relevant knowledge and experience. I appreciate what police and SWAT cops do. Don't take it personally.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
See, that's just it. You're asking the wrong question.
If you mean a Mumbai-style attack, I will say we're growing capacity in that area and leave it at that. That capacity is greater in some areas of the country, lesser in others but nowhere is it where we in LE would like to see it. But like I said, it's an area that we have been improving pretty much since Mumbai.
I disagree. Other than scale, the Pulse incident was nothing more than an active shooter. His motivation may have been different, but at the micro level he's a guy with a gun in a building. This is a problem set for which we have an effective doctrine and which we know we can affect positively if we react quickly enough. I'm not going to get into the weeds of the response to this incident, but I will say that when the AAR is done if fault is found it will be laid squarely at the feet of the command ranks, not the rank and file patrol and SWAT officers. As with most things, poor leadership will override good tactical and technical proficiency.
It is highly disingenuous to imply law enforcement generally doesn't have the ability to deal with a barricaded subject, hostage situation or to effect a crisis entry to do HR if necessary. But again, this circles us back to leadership's intestinal fortitude (in fairness, maybe this is the point you're trying to make).
I haven't attacked your experience; I mentioned SOT-A only to make a point. I respect your service and experience, so let's put that to bed. I'll also concede that I believe your concerns are genuine and valid (to you) and your intent is honorable. You must realize, however, that claiming to speak from a position of expertise (on domestic LE operations and SWAT specifically) and then refusing to divulge the basis of that expertise is not a tenable position. If you've actually served in domestic law enforcement, and specifically in special operations, and therefore have a grasp of capabilities (particularly in a large, urban team) and the highly nuanced and dynamic environment we function in then just say so. No one is asking for a CV of warrants you've served or how many hostage cases you've been in charge of. Experience abroad--in certain CMFs--is also relevant, but due to the difference in accountability and other areas must be viewed accordingly.
Pm.
Yes leadership and organizational culture are a lot of what I'm hinting at. As far as this being just another shooter... that managed to kill more people than before. I disagree. IMO this was like Mumbai... with one guy. The motivations (and the will of the shooter) separate him from a lot of the other mass shootings. How many of those were ended by suicide?
In Texas, they attacked what was basically a hardened target and got wrecked.
Yes leadership and organizational culture are a lot of what I'm hinting at. As far as this being just another shooter... that managed to kill more people than before. I disagree. IMO this was like Mumbai... with one guy. The motivations (and the will of the shooter) separate him from a lot of the other mass shootings. How many of those were ended by suicide?
In Texas, they attacked what was basically a hardened target and got wrecked.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
Many active shooters end in suicide, particularly when they begin to feel pressured (they know LE is responding/on scene, or their plan is falling apart, or they're batshit crazy to start with, etc.). But not all of them end that way.
I'd agree this was Mumbai-like if he'd used IEDs effectively, if small unit tactics had been used, if multiple targets had been hit, if LE was specifically targeted, etc. He did do other things that evidenced a certain level of sophistication, though.
This should have been over within minutes, but it wasn't. The investigators will have to determine why.
As to Texas, well....shit. Don't mess with Texas
Florida173
SOF Support
Would this have had a different result if Orlando had a full time dedicated SWAT team?
If they had a full time SWAT team whose leadership consisted of nothing but bellends and pissants, then probably not. Piss poor leadership could botch any operation. It would depend on the leadership and the training they had. Just because there's a full time SWAT team does not mean they are full up on training for a Mumbai-style encounter.
You know Fl, this is the second time you've brought this up...even after it's already been explained. Are you under the assumption that a SWAT unit, sits around, and waits for the call to come out and everyone comes blasting out of the bldg full bore and enroute to the scene within minutes?
In almost every agency with a SWAT capability, it doesn't work that way. You (The departments) have officers, who are Tm members, who wear 2 hats - 1 is their normal patrol / LE duties and 2, is their ability to mobilize to a command scene. stage and deploy. You have those who will be on duty at the time of an incident and others, may be off duty when the call goes out.
And yes, Orlando DOES have a SWAT capability. And that's how they work it, like most agencies do. The OCSD is responsible for it, not the Orlando PD.
As for the rest of the armchair QB'ng, the magnitude and scope of this crime has still yet to be completely uncovered as to all the facts, responses, causes and effect that took place subsequent to the shootings.
So far, this entire incident is still under investigation. And until it's complete, we still don't know all facts. Rushing to judgment, jumping to conclusions, or role playing 1st responder as to what someone might have done differently to save more lives etc etc etc, is best suited for those amateurs, sitting in their basements safely behind their keyboards.
Just spitballing here, but I think this horrific incident has more to do with a man struggling to reconcile his sexual orientation with his religious beliefs than anything else. He came from a culture that murders homosexuals. He felt shame and self-loathing about his homosexual thoughts and actions. In his twisted mind, maybe he thought the only way he could 'redeem' himself and bring glory to his family is to pledge allegiance to ISIL, kill dozens of infidels and go out in a blaze of glory.
Omar Mateen had, at the very least, a sustained interest in homosexuality. He wasn’t a stranger at Pulse. One regular, Ty Smith, told the Orlando Sentinel he had seen him there on at least 12 occasions. “Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent.” Note that Smith chose the word “belligerent” rather than “bigoted”.
Then there’s his use of the dating app Jack’d. It describes itself as the “largest and fastest growing dating app for guys looking to meet guys. It’s fast, free and fun!” What was it doing on Mateen’s phone? A means of getting his blood up? Enraging himself so he’d be better able to fulfill his jihadist destiny? In that case, why message Pulse regular Kevin West “on and off for a year”?
Omar Mateen's interest in gay men makes this no ordinary act of terrorism | David ShariatmadariThen there’s his use of the dating app Jack’d. It describes itself as the “largest and fastest growing dating app for guys looking to meet guys. It’s fast, free and fun!” What was it doing on Mateen’s phone? A means of getting his blood up? Enraging himself so he’d be better able to fulfill his jihadist destiny? In that case, why message Pulse regular Kevin West “on and off for a year”?
From as early as his days at Indian River Community College, some friends and co-workers wondered whether Mateen was gay. Some simply assumed it.
One former classmate at the college told the Palm Beach Post that he believed Mateen was gay and that Mateen once tried to pick him up at a bar.
The classmate, who is gay but was not out yet in 2006, said he and Mateen and other classmates would sometimes go to gay nightclubs after classes. On one such evening, the classmate said, Mateen asked him whether he was gay, which he denied.
“He said, ‘Well if you were gay, you would be my type.’ I said okay and just went on with the night,” said the classmate, who was not identified by the newspaper. “It was not anything too crazy, but I take that as a pickup line.”
Troubled. Quiet. Macho. Angry. The volatile life of the Orlando shooter.One former classmate at the college told the Palm Beach Post that he believed Mateen was gay and that Mateen once tried to pick him up at a bar.
The classmate, who is gay but was not out yet in 2006, said he and Mateen and other classmates would sometimes go to gay nightclubs after classes. On one such evening, the classmate said, Mateen asked him whether he was gay, which he denied.
“He said, ‘Well if you were gay, you would be my type.’ I said okay and just went on with the night,” said the classmate, who was not identified by the newspaper. “It was not anything too crazy, but I take that as a pickup line.”
Florida173
SOF Support
I don't believe I suggested that there wasn't a SWAT capability. What is the difference between Florida's SWAT teams and Orlando's SWAT capability?
No, but in both comments, you continue to mention "A full time SWAT unit."
I don't know. Let me go visit and train with each one and I'll get back to you in 6 months.........:wall:
Sarcasm aside, with regards to FL's major metropolitan units, probably, and more than likely, not all that much, (budget dictating of course) as most, if not all, do quite a bit of cross training between them.
There are several "part time teams" that meet and exceed NTOA standards for full time team status, with regards to training, policy and structure. The FBI Regional SWAT (Not to be confused with HRT) are technically part time teams. Also many local teams are certified as regional areas of responsibility teams (regional response teams). Meaning they have the structure, leadership, equipment and training to do anything from an aircraft take down, to hostage rescue, infrastructure defense/retakes, etc. Now some teams may only have the capabilities to deal with local small issues, barricade persons, HR, high risk warrant. The capabilities, equipment and standards between regional response capable teams and the local SWAT squad can be night and day.
With regards to the regional response teams, we're not just talking the local county/city LEA's only, we're also talking federal agencies with support assets across the full spectrum of government, with several levels of contingency's along the way and the continuity of command.
The big problem is time and Intel, with any incident like Orlando or Mumbai, its a time vs knowing the full picture. They can claim getting resources together, developing a plan, but the biggest issue of all was finding out what was going on inside the building (how many hostages, how many gun men, IED's, etc).
The incident in Garland Texas was very different. One they were expecting some form of protest, two the officers in Garland PD are highly (as in holy fuck) trained. They don't cut corners with their LEO training. Three, there is a difference in level of alertness from moonlighting a gay night club vs an anti Muhammad art exhibit. We may not want to admit that, but I'd be on my toes a bit more if I'm protecting an anti Muslim event vs night club. Right, wrong or indifferent, complacency is everywhere.
That all said, they killed this fucking asshole and managed to save several people in the process. Yes many died, that is not LE's fault, that's the fault of the asshole that stormed that club and started murdering innocent folks. And as much as we should pick apart what took place and address gaps and or failures in resolution of this style of attack. It shouldn't happen on an open board, that some future wannabe terrorist asshole is probably reading.
$.02
With regards to the regional response teams, we're not just talking the local county/city LEA's only, we're also talking federal agencies with support assets across the full spectrum of government, with several levels of contingency's along the way and the continuity of command.
The big problem is time and Intel, with any incident like Orlando or Mumbai, its a time vs knowing the full picture. They can claim getting resources together, developing a plan, but the biggest issue of all was finding out what was going on inside the building (how many hostages, how many gun men, IED's, etc).
The incident in Garland Texas was very different. One they were expecting some form of protest, two the officers in Garland PD are highly (as in holy fuck) trained. They don't cut corners with their LEO training. Three, there is a difference in level of alertness from moonlighting a gay night club vs an anti Muhammad art exhibit. We may not want to admit that, but I'd be on my toes a bit more if I'm protecting an anti Muslim event vs night club. Right, wrong or indifferent, complacency is everywhere.
That all said, they killed this fucking asshole and managed to save several people in the process. Yes many died, that is not LE's fault, that's the fault of the asshole that stormed that club and started murdering innocent folks. And as much as we should pick apart what took place and address gaps and or failures in resolution of this style of attack. It shouldn't happen on an open board, that some future wannabe terrorist asshole is probably reading.
$.02
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Florida173
SOF Support
I only keep referring to it as a full-time and part-time from my time talking with one of the former SWAT commanders in Orlando, my former unit commander, and going to and facilitating our SWAT roundup a few times. I may be wrong in the way I am describing it, but it seems to be pretty standard. Is this more of a pet peeve of yours, or more contemporary? Basic googling gives me simple things like this and even the SWAT Standards For Law Enforcement Agencies mentions full-time and part-time. So I don't know where you're coming from. My experience is limited, but informed.
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This is a pretty common theme in most radicalization cases. Not necessarily the homosexual aspect, but the gross overcompensation to regain good standing as a Muslim.Just spitballing here, but I think this horrific incident has more to do with a man struggling to reconcile his sexual orientation with his religious beliefs than anything else... maybe he thought the only way he could 'redeem' himself and bring glory to his family is to pledge allegiance to ISIL, kill dozens of infidels and go out in a blaze of glory.
Islamic extremist leaders talk folks of similar backgrounds into being suicide bombers with roughly a, 'dying in the name of Islam will erase all of your sins,' argument.
I definitely wouldn't let his confused sexuality detract from the terrorist aspect.
Brill
SOF Support
Add the element of Ramadan and the shaheed gets a non-stop ticket directly to paradise. Well, that is IF this was religiously motivated and not motivated by blood lust brought on by purchasing an AR-15 military style assault rifle. The pending "no fly, no buy" legislation would have completely stopped this attack...had he been on somebody's watchlist.
policemedic
Verified SWAT
This was not a SWAT problem.
Brill
SOF Support
As I mentioned earlier, if the USG really wanted to stop these CONUS-based jihadists, they should immediately enact laws such as these that replace child pornography with IS killing images and radical Islamic hate speech that inspires Muslims to kill on their behalf. Courts have repeatedly supported the idea that child porn is not protected by 1st Amendment and neither should IS killing and anti-American Islamic sermons. If Islam really is a religion of peace (nope), then the moderate Imams would support laws like this as well since it targets radicals but yet still supports Islam.
Currently anyone can have TB's worth of IS killing images, clerics preaching kill Americans, bomb making lessons, etc on their devices yet high school kids exchange naked selfies only to be convicted sex offenders. Had laws such as this been on the books, would San Bernardo, Chattanooga, Orlando, and even Ft. Hood even happened? It DEFINITELY would have given LEOs probable cause to look further into their activities.
Our priorities are really out of synch. We should arm our LEOs with effective tools to stop the killing long before an American even begins to think "Shit, Abu Bakr may actually be right."
Currently anyone can have TB's worth of IS killing images, clerics preaching kill Americans, bomb making lessons, etc on their devices yet high school kids exchange naked selfies only to be convicted sex offenders. Had laws such as this been on the books, would San Bernardo, Chattanooga, Orlando, and even Ft. Hood even happened? It DEFINITELY would have given LEOs probable cause to look further into their activities.
Our priorities are really out of synch. We should arm our LEOs with effective tools to stop the killing long before an American even begins to think "Shit, Abu Bakr may actually be right."
Brill
SOF Support
Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?
Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?
Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?
