Orlando shooting

Deathy McDeath said:
This article from the American Conservative takes an insightful, nuanced look at gun arguments coming from both sides of the spectrum, and adroitly problematizes them. A good read if you take the time to fully digest his arguments

A Good Guy With a Gun Runs, Too
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Thanks for sharing. The guys I shoot with were talking about something similar tonight, the obligatory "what if I was there" question.

The short answer to a multi-hour discussion is this, I'm not a cop and as long as I'm able to secure whatever family/friends I have with me, I'm getting the F out. I have zero interest to engage this guy, who could have been wearing body army and was obviously armed with a rifle, with my 9mm CZ.

Didn't I read that there was an armed cop in the club? And that the officer exchanged gunfire with the shooter?

Of all the stories I read about what happened out there, the one with the kid who was trapped in the bathroom, texting his mom, his last message saying something like, "He's coming, mama, I'm gonna die!" That has stuck with me. It has made me even more aware of carrying when it is an option (almost anywhere and anytime in MN), because to be trapped like that, knowing my gun was in my car/safe/etc. that would be almost more maddening to me than accepting that I was about to be shot and killed in a bathroom stall. I would like to think that were I in the same situation, my text would look more like, "He's coming mama, if he comes thru that door he's going to die!"
 
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385-ish vs one man in a "confined" space.

Panic starts with one person and spreads...so does heroism.

How many of us have been in tight spots when the words "fuck it" are uttered/heard only to rally and ultimately turn the tide?

Run, Hide, Fight campaign causes the fearful reaction and should be replaced with the warrior mindset "This I will defend".
 
lindy said:
385-ish vs one man in a "confined" space.

Panic starts with one person and spreads...so does heroism.
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100% but the problem is society is increasingly populated by people without an aggressive thought in their minds. Actions and mentalities are indeed contagious, but a handful of guys making a run at the shooter won't turn that tide. People conditioned to believe the state will save them or others handle violence because isn't who they are or whatever excuse won't suddenly rise ot the challenge en masse. Moral courage isn't the same as physical courage and blathering on Twitter or some blog like many do these days isn't the same as confronting one's mortality.

All of this goes back to the "pussification" of society we've all discussed. "My feelings are hurt" has ramifications beyond a CBT for work or another class to take, it is turning our society into one populated by victims, victims who chose to be victims.
 
Freefalling said:
I agree with you 100% but the problem is society is increasingly populated by people without an aggressive thought in their minds. Actions and mentalities are indeed contagious, but a handful of guys making a run at the shooter won't turn that tide. People conditioned to believe the state will save them or others handle violence because isn't who they are or whatever excuse won't suddenly rise ot the challenge en masse. Moral courage isn't the same as physical courage and blathering on Twitter or some blog like many do these days isn't the same as confronting one's mortality.

All of this goes back to the "pussification" of society we've all discussed. "My feelings are hurt" has ramifications beyond a CBT for work or another class to take, it is turning our society into one populated by victims, victims who chose to be victims.
Click to expand...

I weep for the future. I really do. Too many sheep and few sheepdogs/those willing to go in harms way. I am getting into 2A debates again with people who truly believe it is the moral responsibility for someone else to protect them. Sometimes I lose hope.
 
As an aside, does it not infuriate anyone else that the club is so far not being held liable for hiring only one officer for over 300 patrons? I understand that it is likely the minimum amount of LE required by either the city or the insurance, but how irresponsible can they be to have one fucking officer to manage over 300 people? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the officer working the detail did not do an outstanding job. I have worked off duty details when I was still in the profession, and I never expected to really work. The argument for concealed carry is moot in this case because Florida law does not allow for concealed carry in bars or clubs. So it is irrelevant to the discussion. However, the issue of one officer working an event with over 300 people is mind boggling no matter the composition of the audience.

My city has several officers working off duty details at various events and clubs. In fact, the last time I was in a club (2009 I think) there were several officers, a metal detector, and only one access point into the complex. Even being a sworn officer at the time, I was not able to carry inside. Personally, I hate to Monday morning quarterback things that happen in the field, but am I alone in wondering WTF was either the club or the city thinking?
 
I'd like to go on the record saying that it's complete and utter PC bullshit that some of you went down the micro-aggression pathway in reaction to, 'Barrack Hussein Obama.'

eta-
The country elected him, twice. So why is it politically and social off-limits to utter his full name?

Should we not say Patraeus' first name because it implies some sort of religious connotation?
 
Marine0311 said:
I weep for the future. I really do. Too many sheep and few sheepdogs/those willing to go in harms way. I am getting into 2A debates again with people who truly believe it is the moral responsibility for someone else to protect them. Sometimes I lose hope.
Click to expand...

Quit wasting time talking to those people, every day we get older and life is getting to short to waste time talking to stupid people.

You would be shocked how many normal looking regular people are walking around high on illegal drugs or legally medicated because our nation has gotten so fucked up, that people have to be high or loopy just to get through another day.

Society isn't the problem, its the over regulation, over taxation and over the top laws passed day in and day out, that make everyone a criminal. You cannot walk out of your home and go down the road with out breaking at least one law. It's an impossible situation that is grinding society into a bunch of dumbass doped up tards who want to put their personal protection in the hands of the police, who are being prosecuted for fucking doing their jobs.

I'm so fucking sick of reading and hearing about the pussification of the modern man. WTF else is he going to do? It's not like a bunch of kids woke up one day and said "fuck social norms, I want to cut my dick off and dress like a girl, act like a bitch, scream absurdity at college professors and live at my parents into my 30's". It took time for society to get here and it will take even longer to reverse, if that's even possible, but the worst part about it all, is understanding that it is by design, and than trying to rationalize in your head why anyone would socially engineer us into the current format. It's so we argue about if one should have the right to self protection while the other now expects to be protected. It's so we stay divided and arguing about stupid shit that any rational think person would understand, so we don't wake up and see things for what they actually are. You, me and everyone else, are being used, grinded out, to make others wealthy. It's not capitalism or big corporation, its the banking system and it's in everything. Want a car, buy it on credit, pay 10x what it cost to build it, because the bank is involved every step of the process. How is it that a 30year home loan ends up costing you 3 times the original loan amount? Why is that the house is never actually paid for? Why is housing so important to the market and why do the houses fall apart but climb in value beyond reason? Payday loans, credit cards, student loans, vehicle loans, home loans and refinance, bankruptcy, fix it and do it again. New vehicles have doubled in price, homes have tripled, gas is all over the place, light bill, water bill, and food, all have gone up in price, but wages have decreased, and hours are cut to where you need a second and third job to make ends meet. This is happening across the country, but we're still arguing about stupid shit. How many members on this very forum have suffered some kind of catastrophic financial woes only to get up, dust off and do it all over again. Never to understand that it's not them, and there is no way around it, we are slaves to banking system that controls everything.

Think Trump is some special enigma? He works for the same people Clinton, Berne and every one else does. Think its an actual election, or that your vote really matters? Think it matters who is elected? Outside of appearance of politics, do you really think there is any difference in the POTUS election after election, its the same. It's not Democrat or Republican, it is the A team or the B team, and it doesn't matter who wins, because both teams play for the same owners.

Pheww, sorry for the over the top way too long soapbox/rantings. I needed to let that out, and zeroed in on the arguing with people stuff.
 
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Diamondback 2/2 said:
Quit wasting time talking to those people, every day we get older and life is getting to short to waste time talking to stupid people.

You would be shocked how many normal looking regular people are walking around high on illegal drugs or legally medicated because our nation has gotten so fucked up, that people have to be high or loopy just to get through another day.

Society isn't the problem, its the over regulation, over taxation and over the top laws passed day in and day out, that make everyone a criminal. You cannot walk out of your home and go down the road with out breaking at least one law. It's an impossible situation that is grinding society into a bunch of dumbass doped up tards who want to put their personal protection in the hands of the police, who are being prosecuted for fucking doing their jobs.

I'm so fucking sick of reading and hearing about the pussification of the modern man. WTF else is he going to do? It's not a bunch of kids woke up one day and said "fuck social norms, I want to cut my dick off and dress like a girl, act like a bitch, scream absurdity at college professors and live at my parents into my 30's". It took time for society to get here and it will take even longer to reverse, if that's even possible, but the worst part about it all, I understanding that it by design, and than trying to rationalize in your head why anyone would socially engineer us into the current format. It's so we argue about if one should have the right to self protection while the other now expects to be protected. It's so we stay divided and arguing about stupid shit that any rational think person would understand, so we don't wake up and see things for what they actually are. You, me and everyone else, are being used, grinded out, to make others wealthy. It's not capitalism or big corporation, its the banking system and it's in everything. Want a car, buy it on credit, pay 10x what it cost to build it, because the bank is involved every step of the process. How is it that a 30year home loan ends up costing you 3 times the original loan amount? Why is that house never actually paid for? Why is housing so important to the market and why do the house fall apart but climb in value beyond reason? Payday loans, credit cards, student loans, vehicle loans, home loans and refinance, bankruptcy, fix it and do it again. New vehicles have doubled in price, homes have tripled, gas is all over the place, light bill, water bill, and food, all have gone up in price, but wages have decreased, and hours are cut to where you need a second and third job to make ends meet. This is happening across the country, but we're still arguing about stupid shit. How many members on this very forum have suffered some kind of catastrophic financial woes only to get up, dust off and do it all over again. Never to understand that it's not them, and there is no way around it, we are slaves to banking system that controls everything.

Think Trump is some special enigma? He works for the same people Clinton, Berne and every one else does. Think its an actual election, or that your vote really matters? Think it matters who is elected? Outside of appearance of politics, do you really think there is any difference in the POTUS election after election, its the same. It's not Democrat or Republican, it the A team or the B team, and I doesn't matter who wins, because both teams play for the same owners.

Pheww, sorry for the over the top way too long soapbox/rantings. I needed to let that out, and zeroed in on the arguing with people stuff.
Click to expand...

Thank you for writing that. It is very insightful. It's part of how I think and feel walking around. It is sad.
 
Etype said:
I'd like to go on the record saying that it's complete and utter PC bullshit that some of you went down the micro-aggression pathway in reaction to, 'Barrack Hussein Obama.'

eta-
The country elected him, twice. So why is it politically and social off-limits to utter his full name?

Should we not say Patraeus' first name because it implies some sort of religious connotation?
Click to expand...

I understand your point, but the tone of it often tries to imply he is a Muslim. Acting as if it doesn't try and do that is just as much complete and utter bullshit.
 
TLDR20 said:
I understand your point, but the tone of it often tries to imply he is a Muslim. Acting as if it doesn't try and do that is just as much complete and utter bullshit.
Click to expand...

What if he was a Muslim? Would it matter? He was likely indoctrinated into it earlier in his life through schooling and stuff, but who cares. The Pope didn't take over the United States with JFK.

Realizing that Islam isn't only a religion, but it still stands. The only Muslims I've ever liked were bad ones.
 
Florida173 said:
What if he was a Muslim? Would it matter? He was likely indoctrinated into it earlier in his life through schooling and stuff, but who cares. The Pope didn't take over the United States with JFK.

Realizing that Islam isn't only a religion, but it still stands. The only Muslims I've ever liked were bad ones.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Trying to imply POTUS is a Muslim in some sort of wink wink nod conspiracy is just plain stupid.
 
TLDR20 said:
What are you talking about? Trying to imply POTUS is a Muslim in some sort of wink wink nod conspiracy is just plain stupid.
Click to expand...
So you are suggesting that once a Muslim, always a Muslim?

I'm not in anyway playing the game that he's secretly a Muslim and had fooled us this whole time.

I'm asking what difference would be if he was a Muslim.

Sorry.. Off topic. I'm done with this.
 
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