Philando Castile Thread

[DocIllinois]

You are not the only one to ask...

Castile being black is keeping NRA silent about cop's acquittal, 'Daily Show' host charges

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155490286001800

Whether Castile were black or white, speaking out against the cop's actions in this case, or similar ones, would open a whole new conservative front on changing the way police operate in this country.

I would be surprised if the NRA wanted anything to do with being the impetus of such a dialogue.

 

[Blizzard]

Since the discussion is really about the Yanez/Castile stop, here is the dashcam video:

So, rather than jumping to conclusions based on the he said/she said and an emotional Facebook Live stream, we can actually get a little better context as to what took place. There are still missing pieces that we'll never have real answers to; such as Castile's placement of hands, etc.

IMHO there were mistakes on both sides that led to the tragedy. Was Yanez too jumpy for the job? Don't know but was he spooked? It certainly seems so. Castile didn't follow instructions and compounded the issue when apparently placing his hands near his firearm (he did what every permit to carry class I've taken tells you not to do). Oh yeah, and his girlfriend, who has since been charged with felony assault with a hammer in a separate incident, is f'n vile.

Absolutely tragic but seems the jury in this case reached the correct decision.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Holy shit that happened fast.

 

[Red Flag 1]

T

 

[TLDR20]

Since the discussion is really about the Yanez/Castile stop, here is the dashcam video:

So, rather than jumping to conclusions based on the he said/she said and an emotional Facebook Live stream, we can actually get a little better context as to what took place. There are still missing pieces that we'll never have real answers to; such as Castile's placement of hands, etc.
Castile didn't follow instructions and compounded the issue when apparently placing his hands near his firearm (he did what every permit to carry class I've taken tells you not to do). Oh yeah, and his girlfriend, who has since been charged with felony assault with a hammer in a separate incident, is f'n vile.

.

So in your post lies an obvious contradiction, first you say that we will never have real answers about where his hands were, then say he didn't follow instructions when he apparently had his hands near his firearm.

What does a later felony charge have to do with the events that took place that evening? If my wife got gunned down in front of my I might be liable for some felonious shit myself in the months following it...

 

[Blizzard]

So in your post lies an obvious contradiction, first you say that we will never have real answers about where his hands were, then say he didn't follow instructions when he apparently had his hands near his firearm.

That's a fair rebuttal. However, both Yanez and Phillips testified that he Castile's hands were not on the steering wheel and was reaching either for wallet or gun, depending on the story. Castile's hands, wallet, and gun location is speculative.

This is where both made errors in my view. Yanez should've instructed him to keep both hands on the wheel and ask where the firearm is. For his part, Castile should've kept both hands on the wheel (this was taught in every permit to carry class I've been to - also in MN). Aside, Castile is not under any obligation to notify the officer he is carrying a firearm unless asked. My speculation is that it was visible and Castile was attempting to be proactive in telling Yanez. However, after doing so, he should've been extra careful in leaving his hands on the wheel and telling the officer it's exact location before making any movements. Tragedy all around.

What does a later felony charge have to do with the events that took place that evening? If my wife got gunned down in front of my I might be liable for some felonious shit myself in the months following it...

Speaks volumes as to her character or lack thereof. First, she was his girlfriend, not his wife; so quite possibly a different level of commitment. Second, I would certainly hope you wouldn't be mugging people, even if you lost your wife. Regardless, it's not an excuse. She and two others went after someone and she was swinging a hammer. I don't think losing her boyfriend had anything to do with her behavior. So, not cool anyway you try to argue it. That said, she is the one that streamed her own reaction and broadcast her side of the story to the world.

 

[Deleted member 11415]

Speaks volumes as to her character or lack thereof.

I don't see the connection between the girlfriend's "lack of character" and a police officer unloading 7 rounds into a driver of a vehicle with a 4 year old passenger in the backseat.

Regardless, it's not an excuse.

Fair enough. Excuses are not acceptable. Witnessing a police officer gun down the driver of you vehicle is not an excuse for assaulting someone months later.

The officer's reaction in the dashcam transcript and his interview responses all point to an inexperienced officer overreacting and panicking.

I do not believe that lack of adequate training is an excuse that justifies panicking. It comes down to the officer understanding the cost of fear and inexperience in terms of lives, and mitigating the risk though action- or giving up the badge.

The sum total of the officer repeating "fuck" immediately after the shooting and the number of "um" and "uh" used when describing the shooting during the interviews are concerning, at the very least.

Its really a terrible situation for all involved- and it makes it even harder to attract and retain the caliber of people that we need in law enforcement.

 

[Red Flag 1]

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[Blizzard]

I have to wonder about the experience level of the officer, and if he was making dangerous assumptions that put him at risk.

He was licensed in 2011 and had been an officer for 4 years. That doesn't necessarily make him good at what he did. Like any career field, there are people that are good at their jobs and others that aren't. But I wouldn't say he was inexperienced nor did his actions necessarily make him negligent (and confirmed by a jury). Regardless, he is no longer a police officer for that department.

 

[Red Flag 1]

[Q

 

[DocIllinois]

I am not an LEO but there are a couple of things I noticed the officer did not do, that other officers do, routinely at a traffic stop.

Almost every officer will imprint their fingerprints on the tail lights of the stopped vehicle, Yanez did not do that.

Second is that most officers stand away from the driver's door when first approaching the vehicle. Doing this protects the office from being knocked down if the door is shoved open by the driver, and it protects the officer from being shot from a weapon being held in the driver's hand. I see most officers leaning forward from behind the driver's door, which makes it really hard for the driver to shoot the officer.

I have to wonder about the experience level of the officer, and if he was making dangerous assumptions that put him at risk.

I thought the same thing about the experience level of the officer.

Faced with genuinely dangerous and personally threatening situations in close proximity, or what's perceived to be, someone inexperienced with such circumstances can rapidly enter a process of behavioral regression that ends in a great loss of self and situation control, IME.

The case of the murder of young Deputy Kyle Dinkheller comes to mind as an example.

 

[Kraut783]

Inexperience, yes...you can tell from the response. Over reaction of the officer, absolutely. A training issue, sure...but sometimes people react badly in actual situations.

- Use to be you would approach the car and place you hand on the trunk lid...one to make sure your prints are on the car and the other to make sure the trunk is secure. Prints are to ID the car if you were killed or shot..etc, linking your prints to the suspect car. Checking the trunk to make sure no one would pop out of the trunk and shoot the officer.

- You would contact the driver from the position of the door post, why you would bend down and be even with the driver is beyond me. The door post area makes the driver have to look back at the officer and provided a barrier, to some degree.

Due to most PD cars having in car video...there has been false sense of security with it, our FTO's have been correcting this too relaxed approach for a few years now.

 

[CDG]

Based on watching the video, and reading parts of the transcript that have been released, I fail to see how Yanez was acquitted. This was completely unjustifiable, IMO. Once the dude said he had a firearm on him, Yanez had several options he could have utilized before he got to 7 rounds from point blank range. "Oh well, we can't Monday morning QB these things." That's a lazy argument, and nothing is ever going to be learned or improved upon if incidents like this aren't analyzed and questioned. This dude should have been convicted and faced severe consequences for what he did.

Edited to correct a grammatical error.

 

[CDG]

Castile didn't follow instructions .

What instructions did he not follow?

 

[DocIllinois]

Based on watching the video, and reading parts of the transcript that have been released, I fail to see how Yanez was acquitted. This was completely unjustifiable, IMO. Once the dude said he had a firearm on him, Yanez had several options he could have utilized before he got to 7 rounds from point blank range. "Oh well, we can't Monday morning QB these things." That's a lazy argument, and nothing is ever going to be learned or improved upon if incidents like this aren't analyzed and questioned. This dude should have been convicted and faced severe consequences for what he did.

Edited to correct a grammatical error.

Agreed - people who do terrible things in the heat of the moment should still be punished. He obviously realized he'd made a terrible mistake, though, so manslaughter instead of murder, IMHO.

That very reaction after the fact may have been what swayed the jury to the final verdict.

At the least, his department will be undergoing intense escalation of force training sehr schnell.

 

[Blizzard]

Based on watching the video, and reading parts of the transcript that have been released, I fail to see how Yanez was acquitted. This was completely unjustifiable, IMO. Once the dude said he had a firearm on him, Yanez had several options he could have utilized before he got to 7 rounds from point blank range. "Oh well, we can't Monday morning QB these things." That's a lazy argument, and nothing is ever going to be learned or improved upon if incidents like this aren't analyzed and questioned. This dude should have been convicted and faced severe consequences for what he did.

Edited to correct a grammatical error.

He was charged with second degree manslaughter. Here's the statute:
609.205 - 2016 Minnesota Statutes

609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or

(2) by shooting another with a firearm or other dangerous weapon as a result of negligently believing the other to be a deer or other animal; or

(3) by setting a spring gun, pit fall, deadfall, snare, or other like dangerous weapon or device; or

(4) by negligently or intentionally permitting any animal, known by the person to have vicious propensities or to have caused great or substantial bodily harm in the past, to run uncontrolled off the owner's premises, or negligently failing to keep it properly confined; or

(5) by committing or attempting to commit a violation of section 609.378 (neglect or endangerment of a child), and murder in the first, second, or third degree is not committed thereby.

If proven by a preponderance of the evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense to criminal liability under clause (4) that the victim provoked the animal to cause the victim's death.

The jury determined his actions don't meet the criteria. I agree.

 

[Blizzard]

What instructions did he not follow?

That's the crux of argument, isn't it? Yanez told him not to "reach for it" or "pull it out". He perceived that Castile was doing so.

Why do you think Yanez reached into the car with his left hand before firing? He perceived a threat. Yanez was scared and has said as much.

 

[Blizzard]

He obviously realized he'd made a terrible mistake

Why do you say that? Because of his reaction/cursing afterwards?

I've seen a number of police shooting videos and in many there's a fair amount of "remorse" cursing afterwards. He just took a life - he was probably pretty certain about that. It's doubtful that scenario was on his mind up until the moment it went down based on the way he approached the vehicle. He was surprised and scared. It's absolutely tragic but I don't believe it rises to manslaughter.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

@Blizzard "Disagree" with your post above because everything about the pain-in-the-ass his sister, mom, etc are all non-factors. At the time, the officer did not know any of this.

Regarding the case, I've listened to enough lawyers to understand that in many cases a jury feels helpless. They want to convict a person of 'something', but following the strict rule-of-law that the judge spells out during instructions, the evidence often does not allow a conviction for the crime that the prosecutor went with.

In a case like this, I believe that the prosecutor is often pressured to "go for it" on a charge, knowing it is a long shot, and wishing they could get away with charging a lesser offense and be more likely to get a conviction on it. It's lose/lose for them, because if they don't charge a strong enough crime, the "outraged" will protest that he's being too easy on the cop. A shitty situation all around.

 

[CDG]

That's the crux of argument, isn't it? Yanez told him not to "reach for it" or "pull it out". He perceived that Castile was doing so.

Why do you think Yanez reached into the car with his left hand before firing? He perceived a threat. Yanez was scared and has said as much.

Him saying he perceived a threat isn't good enough in this situation. The responsibility is on the officer to make his instructions clear, which he did not do. "Oh well, his hand was set wider than it should have been for a wallet." GTFO with that lame ass argument. This dude was so far into blackout mode that he let go of 7 rounds, then started screaming and cursing. He didn't have the mental acuity to process that type of minute detail.