Larry Vickers' Case

[Box]

If the police can use privately owned weapons when dealing with US citizens that are presumed innocent until proven guilty because the tools issued by the department "aren't good enough" - then why cant the US Military use privately owned weapons against hostile forces belligerent to the freedoms and liberties of the USA and our allies?
...asking for a friend

All the while - a huge portion of the politically motivated crime syndicate currently administering truth justice and the american way or a weary population eagerly claims that some things are just for "police and military"
...silly fucking peasants - we should all just be happy the oour exalted leaders in government allow us to own any firearms at all.

 

[Devildoc]

I can see both sides and largely indifferent.

What I DO find weird are departments who make their recruits buy their own gun, and then have a bunch to choose from (looking at you, Chicago PD). The lack of uniformity and standardization is weird.

 

[DA SWO]

I can see both sides and largely indifferent.

What I DO find weird are departments who make their recruits buy their own gun, and then have a bunch to choose from (looking at you, Chicago PD). The lack of uniformity and standardization is weird.

Ammo standardization would be my only criteria.
Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Kraut783]

It can be odd....so many departments across the country.

My department use to have you purchase your own firearm as long as it met a department requirement (caliber/brand). The officers supported this due to persons wanting to carry a single action .45, or a certain brand of pistol...HK, Sig, Glock, or caliber choice. We fought to keep this, but time caught up to us.

Department issues duty pistol (Glock 45 9mm) and duty rifle now (AR-15). But, don't issue an off duty or a smaller pistol for plainclothes assignments. If you wish to furnish your own plainclothes pistol or off duty, it has to be a 9mm Glock and checked out routinely by our armorers.

My PD encourages range time and offers open ranges at varying hours for officers to attend. Department also offers firearms training throughout the year.

As in the military, you have persons who shoot below average, average and above average.

 

[Devildoc]

Ammo standardization would be my only criteria.
Different strokes for different folks.

A friend of mine is on the department, a lieutenant. He told me about a shoot-out with some gang-bangers, one of the cops emptied his mags, but none of the other officers had compatible mags. Ammo standardization is a thing, too, but I see some other potential issues.

I wish Uncle Sam just let me qual with and carry a Glock.

 

[Devildoc]

It can be odd....so many departments across the country.

My department use to have you purchase your own firearm as long as it met a department requirement (caliber/brand). The officers supported this due to persons wanting to carry a single action .45, or a certain brand of pistol...HK, Sig, Glock, or caliber choice. We fought to keep this, but time caught up to us.

Department issues duty pistol (Glock 45 9mm) and duty rifle now (AR-15). But, don't issue an off duty or a smaller pistol for plainclothes assignments. If you wish to furnish your own plainclothes pistol or off duty, it has to be a 9mm Glock and checked out routinely by our armorers.

My PD encourages range time and offers open ranges at varying hours for officers to attend. Department also offers firearms training throughout the year.

As in the military, you have persons who shoot below average, average and above average.

When I was a tactical medic on the local SWAT team, they made me go through BLET to get LE certified. Shooting was part of the curriculum, and I used my Glock (17). The department at the time carried S&W 5906, which was a great gun. They made me use my Glock instead of issuing me the S&W since I wasn't a for-real FT cop. I was fine with that, but I did dig that S&W.

 

[policemedic]

For yourself and others who carry non-issued weapons. You regularly shoot them, how often do others? How often are rank-and-file officers shooting even their duty weapons?
Yes, I shoot frequently. I've noticed this to be true of people who choose to carry a personal weapon. Folks who aren't shooters won't have a strong preference in firearms, won't spend the money to buy a gun for work, worry about it being taken for evidence (this is legitimate), and won't spend the time/money/effort to go to a range more frequently than the department requires them to. Speaking of which, my department mandates range days twice a year, which isn't enough in my mind but it's twice the state standard. If you count force-on-force active shooter training with Sims Glocks and rifles, then our rank and file shoot three times a year. My unit shoots much more than that.

Here's some of the reasons cops want to carry a different weapon than what's issued.
-The issued gun doesn't fit their hand, which in turn affects accuracy, speed, ability to manipulate controls, reload, etc
-They are more confident with a different caliber, model, trigger pull
-They want modifications like stippling, a red dot sight, etc. Of course, any modifications that affects the way the gun actually functions is verboten.
-The issued gun isn't the best choice for their current assignment (I didn't carry a Glock 17 with a light when I was in Narcotics, for example).

There are others, but that's a start.

The militarization of police has gone on for years now; Officers look like they are storming Fallujah. Killing dogs is enough of a thing it has become a meme. There are entire Youtube channels devoted to bodycams showing officers doing illegal shit. I can go on, but police aren't selected and trained very well. My wife worked with a former cop who was fired for his conduct. She met his FTO who stated the FTO tried to have the guy released/ fired, but the Sheriff wouldn't allow that. How many abject shitbags have remained on the job because of the union?

I disagree that police departments are militarized. That term is synonymous in my mind with 'assault weapon'. The rest of this would make for an interesting conversation over beer, but is irrelevant to the issue at hand. None of this really touches on why who paid for my gun matters. But, just so you don't think I'm brushing you off...here's what it takes become a police officer in my agency (really, in my state period because the requirements are basically the same for everyone).

Written Examination

(Add two panel interviews for my department)

Physical Fitness & Agility Test

• Sit-ups (within 1 minute)
• The 300-meter run
• Push-Ups (within 1 minute)
• 1.5-mile run
• Read the latest physical fitness requirements as mandated by the Municipal Police Officers' Education and Training Commission.

Personal Data Questionnaire (PDQ) Interview

Having done both, trust me when I say that the PDQ is worse than eQuips. Example...the date of purchase, model, serial #, caliber, and disposition (still have it/sold/etc) of every gun you have ever owned goes on this form. I just highlight this to show the level of detail they drill down to.

Background Investigation--if the applicant is a current/former police officer, we are required by law to examine their internal affairs records from every other agency they've worked at. This is just one piece of the background investigation, and the whole process can take months.

Medical Evaluation (includes drug testing)

Polygraph Examination

Psychological Evaluation--MMPI-2 and interview

Chain of Command Approval

Police Academy -- 9.5 months

Random drug screening is also performed on all active police officers in my department throughout their career.

Mandatory annual training to maintain commission--classroom updates, firearms, CPR/first aid, defensive tactics (combatives) (+ 5 days of mental health training in order to be authorized to use a Taser in my shop)

Field Training Officer period (roughly 3 months at our shop for new officers)

That's not to mention that everything you do is captured on bodycam, reviewed at several levels internally, and then by the District Attorney and the court system.

I challenge you to show me another job that has a similar vetting process. There aren't many. There are people running around with clearances who weren't subjected to this level of scrutiny. Doctors spend more time in school but aren't vetted like this.

I'm open to a better way of doing things, but I think we do as good a job as can humanly be done screening our candidates.

And those YT videos above? Absolutely filled with officers driving drunk and other offenses and then trying to get out of them by using their badge/ the brotherhood, practically begging to be released and getting angry when not. Hell, even when arrested they are treated differently than an average citizen: not handcuffed, allowed to retain their weapon, etc.

I'm not going to defend any of that, except to say that those cases represent a minuscule fraction of police officers.

And this what we see, how deep does this problem run? How many LEOs on this forum have allowed another officer to get away with a crime?

Not this one.

So, no, I don't think officers should carry individually owned weapons. Their departments think so little of them they won't fund those weapons. I don't trust the rank-and-file to attain any degree of competency with those weapons. The liability has to be an issue as stated above.

You haven't made a cogent argument against the practice. All you've done is bash cops.

As to your comment about skill level, well...trust me, it wouldn't matter whose gun they carried. Their skill level would be the same regardless.

Funding may or may not be an issue. My PD is not underfunded by any means. It's about allowing the officer some degree of choice and agency; it's about allowing them to use the tool they are most comfortable with (within guidelines, of course).

But insofar as funding is relevant, most police departments in Pennsylvania are comprised of less than 10 people. Those places may have funding issues. In fact, I know of one that couldn't afford to issue ID cards; they had to use their commission card as a police ID. (Typically, PA cops carry two creds--an ID from their department and their commission from the state).

At the end of the day, why are police buying their own kit? Funding? Okay...but that's a department problem. My dad was a union electrician. If the employer didn't provide tools, he and the others wouldn't work. Police have a union...why isn't there a work stoppage for inadequate equipment?

Not every police department has a union; this is particularly true of sheriffs. Hell, I'm not represented. But more to the point, have you ever been in a hospital? I guarantee that every clinician that uses a stethoscope owns their own. Calipers, ditto. Penlights, ditto. Many union tradesmen provide some or all of their own tools, though I don't doubt that wasn't your father's case.

By the way, we can't strike or do a work stoppage. Would you really want us to?

Entire police departments allowed kids to die rather than intervene and we're supposed to trust others to not do the same? To be well trained?

Not true, but I know what you're talking about and the people who were on scene were cowards and unfit to wear a badge. They're a disgrace to law enforcement everywhere.

2 decades ago when I shot IPSC/ USPSA matches, we'd have local LEO's show up, shoot a match, and never return. The few who returned did because they wanted to better with their issued weapon. Some of us point blank asked those who returned why the others did not. Their response to a man?

The officers were embarrassed of their skill level.

I believe you.

Departments aren't training and equipping their officers. Officers aren't proficient in basic non-lethal skills like interacting with people. Why should they carry any weapon they want when they cannot or will not maintain even basic skills?

Demonstrably untrue.

I am not anti-police, but for fuck's sake your career field needs an overhaul. You need more officers, more training, more funding, and leadership (including the union) who will flush turds rather than keep them on the payroll. You need more officers willing to challenge corruption even at the DUI level.

That's a lot to unpack, but that's my response.

I'm never going to argue against more funding, training, or better leadership.

P.S. The bold and stuff is just to separate my answers and make it easier to read (I hope). I'm not yelling.

 

[policemedic]

A friend of mine is on the department, a lieutenant. He told me about a shoot-out with some gang-bangers, one of the cops emptied his mags, but none of the other officers had compatible mags. Ammo standardization is a thing, too, but I see some other potential issues.

I wish Uncle Sam just let me qual with and carry a Glock.

This is the unicorn gun fight. Also, it's why a lot of guys have gone to carrying more than the standard 2 extra mags.

 

[Kaldak]

Here's some food for thought when it comes to officers purchasing their own firearms for duty that is probably unintended, but a real issue in my view.

When I got divorced, the ex-wife's pistol and AR were up for negotiation (she's a cop in a 300K person city). They were bought with OUR money, and we lived in a community property state. I decided to play nice in the divorce, but they were an item the court used in determining the equal division of assets. Had I wanted, I could've asked to take one, possibly both, per the court, in lieu of something else. Because WE owned them, not the department, and they were in the home and used outside of work.

I'm sure it would've been an easy fix to get her set up with a new weapon temporarily, until she purchased new ones through the department. I'm also sure it would've caused some major headaches (for her and the department) in the process.

Separately...

I own two different pistols, an HK (9mm) and a Sig (40S&W), that I bought from two different current officers. Both pistols were former duty weapons, and the guys switched to Glock, independently of one another and about 8mo apart.

Here is the interesting part, and goes to the training comments in this thread. Both pistols had less than 200 rounds through each, per the officers' own admission. Each was the duty weapon for 18mo and 12mo respectively. That's not a lot of rounds for an item you carry everyday. Twelve months is roughly 50 rounds per quarter, or just over a magazine per month. The HK was from an LT, so not a beat cop anymore, but the department requires everyone to pull a patrol shift once a month, the Chief included. That is an abysmally low amount of practice for an integral part of your job.

 

[Box]

Imagine...
There is an active shooter event and "we" are all officers from the same department responding with lights flashing, sirens wailing, and guns out...
...for the children

I'm shooting my Glock, chambered in the Lords Caliber.
AWP is also shooting a Glock but his is .40 S&W
Devildoc has his Glock 17
Kaldak is pretty old school and still carries a Colt 1911.

Kaldak runs out of ammo - but never fear - I'm shooting the Lords caliber and can toss him a...
...wait, I have a Glock, he has a 1911
...shit
...wait, just pull the bullets and load up a couple mags and get back in the fight
...what?
...who the hell still carries a 1911 chambered in .38 super?
...FUCK

It might lead someone to ask - what did you learn to shoot when you were at the Academy?
Why would you take the rank and file - teach them on a specific item of equipment, and then send them out with the freedom of "shooters choice"

Now - I am not a cop.
But I do know a thing or two about uniformity, commonality of equipment, and standardized procedures. I've also done quite a bit of training with local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies in my day.
One thing I know is that my two cents really don't carry a single grain of salt when it comes to countless police departments deciding how they want to do business - but seeing, hearing, and learning the hows and whys about the way any given police department does business is what informs how much trust I place in law enforcement.

When I see an organization that "doesn't care" what equipment their people are using - I see an organization that "doesn't care" what equipment their people are using.

When you have departments that "don't care" what equipment their employees are using - you end up with employees that go looking for stuff that they probably don't really need - before you know it - you got folks going to prison for buying things they probably shouldn't have tried buying in the first place.

 

[policemedic]

Here's some food for thought when it comes to officers purchasing their own firearms for duty that is probably unintended, but a real issue in my view.

When I got divorced, the ex-wife's pistol and AR were up for negotiation (she's a cop in a 300K person city). They were bought with OUR money, and we lived in a community property state. I decided to play nice in the divorce, but they were an item the court used in determining the equal division of assets. Had I wanted, I could've asked to take one, possibly both, per the court, in lieu of something else. Because WE owned them, not the department, and they were in the home and used outside of work.

I'm sure it would've been an easy fix to get her set up with a new weapon temporarily, until she purchased new ones through the department. I'm also sure it would've caused some major headaches (for her and the department) in the process.

Separately...

I own two different pistols, an HK (9mm) and a Sig (40S&W), that I bought from two different current officers. Both pistols were former duty weapons, and the guys switched to Glock, independently of one another and about 8mo apart.

Here is the interesting part, and goes to the training comments in this thread. Both pistols had less than 200 rounds through each, per the officers' own admission. Each was the duty weapon for 18mo and 12mo respectively. That's not a lot of rounds for an item you carry everyday. Twelve months is roughly 50 rounds per quarter, or just over a magazine per month. The HK was from an LT, so not a beat cop anymore, but the department requires everyone to pull a patrol shift once a month, the Chief included. That is an abysmally low amount of practice for an integral part of your job.

That's interesting about your ex-wife's guns. I suspect that is a very rare situation, but it's interesting.

I'm not surprised by the round count in your pistols. People think cops are gunslingers and shoot all the time...it's not true. For most, it's just another tool they have to use. Most cops have probably done more for justice and the American way with a computer and a pen than a gun, but very few have an interest in computers that extends beyond what they do day-to-day.

 

[policemedic]

Imagine...
There is an active shooter event and "we" are all officers from the same department responding with lights flashing, sirens wailing, and guns out...
...for the children

I'm shooting my Glock, chambered in the Lords Caliber.

As you should.

AWP is also shooting a Glock but his is .40 S&W

Nope. AWP doesn't compromise. 9mm or .45 ACP for him; fuck this middle of the road bullshit.

Devildoc has his Glock 17

He needs all those rounds....

Kaldak is pretty old school and still carries a Colt 1911.

Because Kaldak is the man, and the 1911 is no doubt a series 70 because like you say, old school
.

Kaldak runs out of ammo - but never fear - I'm shooting the Lords caliber and can toss him a...

Now, we're pushing credibility here. The 1911 shooter ended the problem with a properly executed Mozambique drill.

...wait, I have a Glock, he has a 1911
...shit
...wait, just pull the bullets and load up a couple mags and get back in the fight
...what?
...who the hell still carries a 1911 chambered in .38 super?

Muppet does. But only because he's a die hard .38 Special fan; he's been to every one of their concerts within 100 miles of home and has Trooper With An Attitude as his ring tone.

...FUCK

It might lead someone to ask - what did you learn to shoot when you were at the Academy?

Fair question. A Smith and Wesson Model 10 and Remington 870 shotgun. And yes, that's what we were issued because I started in this business when Christ was a beat cop and Wyatt Earp was my FTO.

Should I still carry a wheelgun? Tote a pump shotgun instead of a Benelli?

Why would you take the rank and file - teach them on a specific item of equipment, and then send them out with the freedom of "shooters choice"

Well, it's not shooters choice, and it's not done without careful consideration.

While my shop approved me to carry 2 different HKs, those guns were chosen from an approved list of manufacturer and caliber (.45 ACP, just as God intended). You can't just pick any gun and/or caliber. I did fight for a 1911 (see above), but that was the one gun they wouldn't approve for on-duty use because it was of different design than most semi-autos and might have confused someone if they had to make it safe. I disagreed, but...

Once approved, you had to attend training and qualify with it. You also had to maintain a qualification with the issued pistol, in the event yours had to go into evidence, or be sent for repairs. In fact, personal duty guns are subject to a bit more scrutiny than issued guns.

Now - I am not a cop.
But I do know a thing or two about uniformity, commonality of equipment, and standardized procedures. I've also done quite a bit of training with local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies in my day.

There is an argument for commonality of equipment, but it is much more relevant on the military side than the LE side. We don't worry about supply lines, and while the unicorn gunfight you're describing has happened maybe once or twice, it's not an argument that is sufficiently persuasive as to negate the benefits of allowing a professional the choice of what tool to use 99% of the time.

You should also know that in many (most?) PDs, there is no commonality regardless of whether they allow personally owned weapons or not. I'll draw an example from my own shop. All of these guns are issued by the PD based on preference and/or operational requirements.
Bugle call for gunfight sounds...
I'm shooting my Glock, chambered in the Lords Caliber.
AWP is also shooting a Glock but his is .40 S&W
Devildoc has his Glock 17
Kaldak has his trusty Glock 19
Muppet has small hands and brings to bear the mighty Glock 43

You see the issue, of course. But the truth is, 99% or more of LE gunfights are not the battle of Fallujah and don't require someone tossing a mag to their partner, or an NCO to do a LACE report and redistribute assets.

We're not alone in this. LAPD fields a number of different handguns, for example. They are one of the best trained and equipped PDs in the nation.

One thing I know is that my two cents really don't carry a single grain of salt when it comes to countless police departments deciding how they want to do business - but seeing, hearing, and learning the hows and whys about the way any given police department does business is what informs how much trust I place in law enforcement.

When I see an organization that "doesn't care" what equipment their people are using - I see an organization that "doesn't care" what equipment their people are using.

I like that phrase and I'm stealing it.

Thing is, when a police department allows someone to choose a weapon that meets guidelines for quality in a caliber with proven effectiveness, that fits their hand, and that they can shoot better and faster than the one the PD issues, that is caring about what equipment their officers use. They want their cops to use what works best for them.

When you have departments that "don't care" what equipment their employees are using - you end up with employees that go looking for stuff that they probably don't really need - before you know it - you got folks going to prison for buying things they probably shouldn't have tried buying in the first place.

This is administratively controllable.

 

[Muppet]

As you should.

Nope. AWP doesn't compromise. 9mm or .45 ACP for him; fuck this middle of the road bullshit.


He needs all those rounds....


Because Kaldak is the man, and the 1911 is no doubt a series 70 because like you say, old school
.

Now, we're pushing credibility here. The 1911 shooter ended the problem with a properly executed Mozambique drill.


Muppet does. But only because he's a die hard .38 Special fan; he's been to every one of their concerts within 100 miles of home and has Trooper With An Attitude as his ring tone.


Fair question. A Smith and Wesson Model 10 and Remington 870 shotgun. And yes, that's what we were issued because I started in this business when Christ was a beat cop and Wyatt Earp was my FTO.

Should I still carry a wheelgun? Tote a pump shotgun instead of a Benelli?


Well, it's not shooters choice, and it's not done without careful consideration.

While my shop approved me to carry 2 different HKs, those guns were chosen from an approved list of manufacturer and caliber (.45 ACP, just as God intended). You can't just pick any gun and/or caliber. I did fight for a 1911 (see above), but that was the one gun they wouldn't approve for on-duty use because it was of different design than most semi-autos and might have confused someone if they had to make it safe. I disagreed, but...

Once approved, you had to attend training and qualify with it. You also had to maintain a qualification with the issued pistol, in the event yours had to go into evidence, or be sent for repairs. In fact, personal duty guns are subject to a bit more scrutiny than issued guns.


There is an argument for commonality of equipment, but it is much more relevant on the military side than the LE side. We don't worry about supply lines, and while the unicorn gunfight you're describing has happened maybe once or twice, it's not an argument that is sufficiently persuasive as to negate the benefits of allowing a professional the choice of what tool to use 99% of the time.

You should also know that in many (most?) PDs, there is no commonality regardless of whether they allow personally owned weapons or not. I'll draw an example from my own shop. All of these guns are issued by the PD based on preference and/or operational requirements.
Bugle call for gunfight sounds...
I'm shooting my Glock, chambered in the Lords Caliber.
AWP is also shooting a Glock but his is .40 S&W
Devildoc has his Glock 17
Kaldak has his trusty Glock 19
Muppet has small hands and brings to bear the mighty Glock 43

You see the issue, of course. But the truth is, 99% or more of LE gunfights are not the battle of Fallujah and don't require someone tossing a mag to their partner, or an NCO to do a LACE report and redistribute assets.

We're not alone in this. LAPD fields a number of different handguns, for example. They are one of the best trained and equipped PDs in the nation.

I like that phrase and I'm stealing it.

Thing is, when a police department allows someone to choose a weapon that meets guidelines for quality in a caliber with proven effectiveness, that fits their hand, and that they can shoot better and faster than the one the PD issues, that is caring about what equipment their officers use. They want their cops to use what works best for them.

This is administratively controllable.

I EDC a glock 19, thank you very much. Lol

 

[AWP]

Mine's a Glock 23, but I've looked at a couple of their 9mm models. Prior to the Glock, I carried a H&K USP also in .40. 9 mil ammo has become ridiculously good in the 15-ish years since I bought the 23 and the 27 years since I bought the H&K.

 

[Kraut783]

Duty: Glock 19 (i'm grandfathered in and don't have to carry the Glock 45 9mm if I don't want to)
CID: Glock 43X with shield magazines (15rd)
Off duty: Glock 43
Duty Rifle: LWRC M6 (i'm grandfathered in and can carry my own rifle, checked out by PD armorers)

Our department is great about equipment and training opportunity. But, being in the Dallas metro area, most departments are on the high end of equipment and training.

 

[Devildoc]

He needs all those rounds....

Hey, I take offense to this! I mean, it's true, but I still take offense to this!

 

[Muppet]

Duty: Glock 19 (i'm grandfathered in and don't have to carry the Glock 45 9mm if I don't want to)
CID: Glock 43X with shield magazines (15rd)
Off duty: Glock 43
Duty Rifle: LWRC M6 (i'm grandfathered in and can carry my own rifle, checked out by PD armorers)

Our department is great about equipment and training opportunity. But, being in the Dallas metro area, most departments are on the high end of equipment and training.

How do you you like the LWRC?

 

[policemedic]

Come to the range with me and shoot one for yourself.

 

[Kraut783]

How do you you like the LWRC?

I love it, great piston rifle!

 

[Devildoc]

Liquors posted this on social media in the wee hours of the morning. This is a screenshot so it's about four sentences incomplete.