Pistol Marksmanship

I understand locking the wrist as far forward as possible, but again I have to revert back to its really shooter dependent (human body structure and disabilities). My disagreement with Zushwa is not on that point, but more so on having 60-70% of his recoil being managed in his non-firing hand/ arm. I just don’t understand what he is trying to say there. I have been taught in the past to use the non-firing hand to drive the gun during recoil on multi target engagement and do use that technique for things like steel bank drills. However the recoil management has always been shared between both arms.

Now my human body structure and disabilities comments, I have taught thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen while teaching with the SARG. I have seen every issue/ complaint you can imagine and have learned that not all techniques work well for all people. People are built differently and require different techniques to develop their shooting. I my self now suffer from some limitations in the neck, back and left arm.

If you go back and view the pictures when I am fully extended and locked out, you will see that my neck is extended lower, my shoulders look funny and m left arm doesn’t look fully locked although it really is. I can’t lift my arms with out bringing my head down now, due to some injuries and I have nerve damage in my left shoulder/ arm/ hand. I shot 1500 rd’s last week over a 5 day period, where I use to shoot 1000 to 1500 rd a day. I am only good for about 500 rd a day now and then the pain become intolerable. So I adjusted my body to get the best results, while trying to maintain what I know is right in order to continue to shoot. So my understanding of body structure and disabilities has gotten a little better these last few months because it has gotten close to home.

Now driving on with the issue of recoil management. I don’t think it’s a good idea to practice to absorb a majority of recoil in the non-firing hand. I teach/ shoot even amount in both arms and have had my best results in shooting and students with doing so. Hips, shoulders as square to the target as you can, and lock both arms out. Recoil is absorbed through the arms, shoulders and hips and the sights should be moving up and down on the target.
 
Nice post! Good pic's to show just how to handle a pistol.

Only things that I could add would be bring the sights up to eye level. Not bring your head down to the sights. The things that change this would be the physical limitations of the shooter. In cases like that, then you take the shooter and make it work for them. Based on what you have to work with.

That is one of the most challenging (and fun) issues of being an instructor. I have a guy at the Dept who has lost the tip of his trigger finger down to the first knuckle. We worked for a couple days on making his limitations work and he has become a competent shooter. A change on grip made this happen. Sometimes, its not appropriate to place the weapon centered in the web of the hand. I know that for me, my reference point is off the rear knuckle of my thumb against the backstrap of my G22. We make the weapon work for the shooter.

As for the support hand issue, it does help greatly in the control of recoil. Primary hand should focus on trigger control and a basic grip.
 
Cabbage Head said:
Oh, and I like this drill! I am going to steal it and use it at the Dept.

Dont worry, I will make sure that I take all the credit.:D
Click to expand...

I wrote that drill wrong, I was re-reading what I wrote and then checked to my hard copy here and I screwed the pooch...:doh:

I am going to type it out word for word off of my hard copy tomorrow and post it... So don't go taking credit for it yet, get the right one so you don't look like an ass...;) kind of how I just made my self look.:doh::evil:
 
Oh, don’t worry. If it didn’t work out right, then I would make sure that I had plausible deniability.:)

Still, I like the concept of the drill. With my boss' having issues with ammo lately, a drill that covers multiple threats and a total round count that is within reason is a good thing.:cool:
 
Rapid target engagement & body armor drill:

Use a bank of 4 B27 type targets spaced 12 to 18 inches a part at a distance of 15 yards. Staple two 3x5 index cards to the target, 1 in the facial area and 1 center of mass/ or chest. The index cards should be long ways up.

Equipment: Shooter will need at least 2 magazines capable of holding 12 or more rounds, or 3 magazines capable of holding 6 round or more. This course of fire is 30 rounds of ammunition. A holster and magazine pouches are required.

Rapid Target Engagement:

Load one 12 round magazine and holster. The shooter should have a 6 round magazine in a magazine pouch for a slide lock reload at the end of stage 2.

Stage 1: The shooter will have six seconds to draw and fire 1 shot on each target and the return to the far left target and fire 2 additional shots. All shots are fired at center mass/ chest index card. (Shooter holsters)

Stage 2: The shooter will have five seconds to draw and fire 1 shot on each target and return to the far left target and fire 2 additional shots. All shots are fired center mass/ chest index cards. (Slide-lock reload with 6 round magazine and holster)

Stage 3: The shooter will have 4 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots per a target starting with the second target and ending on the fourth target. All shots are fired at center mass/ chest index card. (Shooter holsters)

Scoring: is hit and misses, 10 points per a hit for a total of 180 points. Late shots are counted as misses.

Body Armor Drill:

Load one 12 round magazine and holster.

Stage 1: The shooter will have 4 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the first target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Shooter holsters)

Stage 2: The shooter will have 3.5 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the second target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Shooter holsters)

Stage 3: The shooter will have 3 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the third target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Shooter holsters)

Stage 4: The shooter will have 2.5 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the fourth target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Clear pistol and holster)

Scoring: Scoring is hit or miss, 10 points per a hit, for a total of 120 points. If the shooter misses a headshot the shooter drops all hits per that target for the body armor portion. Late shots are counted as misses. The combination of both rapid-fire engagement and body armor drill scores will determine the over all score for skill level.

270 to 300 Advanced
260 to 230 Intermediate
220 to 190 Basic

This drill is great for teaching multi target engagements and body armor drills with accuracy; the idea is to shoot as fast as you can accurately. When first starting out the shooter should adjust the times if necessary to insure all shot are hits and then gradually increase the speed to accomplish the full course of fire. Distances can me shortened to 10 yards to build shooter confidence or increased to 20-25 yards to increase difficulty.

Note this course of fire is also great for shooting with a rifle or carbine.
 
Originally Posted by zushwa
I would say your support hand needs some better positioning. The support hand plays a vital role in recoil management, which in turn plays a role in follow through and multiple shots. Rotating your support hand forward until the ligaments are locked gives you a fixed position to return to after a shot has been fired. With your wrist "loose" you are playing a guessing game as to where the gun will settle after a shot. With approximately 60-70 percent of your recoil management coming from your support hand I'd say it's an important detail.

Originally Posted by J.A.B.
I am going to have to disagree with you; the “support hand” shares in absorbing recoil but should not be taking the blunt of the recoil. The recoil should be shared between both arms. I mean think about what you are saying; the recoil is going to go into my support arm more so then my firing side. That would cause you to receive more recoil to one side then the other, causing your follow through to shift to that side.

You want your recoil to be straight up and your follow through straight back down to the point of aim when firing rapid shots, not bouncing off of the target to the left or right due to on even recoil in the grip/ extension.

As for locking the wrist ligaments that will be shooter dependent. Not everyone can shoot that way due genetic structure and/ or disabilities. However you are correct that locking the wrist as far out as possible will give you better consistency. My wrist is as forward as it will go and fully locked, however my thumb is resting higher due to comfort and my consistency of my grip.
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I am going to eat some crow here, I miss-read/ miss understood Zushwa’s post in regards to the 60-70% recoil management coming from the support hand. I thought he was saying that the recoil was being absorbed more by one side or the other. He explained to me he was talking about the grip pressure from the non-firing hand being 60-70% and the firing hand being 40-30% of the pressure, this leveling the primary job of the firing hand to work the trigger. I agree with that and use that same type of pressure break down at distance’s past 15 yards.

I guess I should take a reading comprehension class prior to disagreeing with anyone’s post. :doh: I apologize for the unneeded disagreement, you are in fact correct in what you posted. ;)
 
The “1x8” pistol drill.

The “1x8” pistol drill.

This drill is designed to allow shooters to practice shooting one handed while moving laterally, it will hold the shooter to a high degree of accuracy at the same time pushing the shooters one-handed marksmanship abilities.

Range: The range must allow for lateral movement of at leased 15 feet. This drill requires 4 targets spread one in a half to two feet apart at a distance of 5 yards, it is recommended that full size B27 type targets are used with a small target area designated on the target (such as the head) a 4 inch shoot n see type target is recommended.

Equipment: 1 pistol and 1 magazine capable of holding 8 rounds. 8 rounds of ammunition are used during this drill.

Course of fire: The shooter will begin at the interview stance 5 yards from the target, on the command “fire” (any command can be used, such as “gun” “knife” ect.) the shooter will draw with the right hand fire 1 shot per a target while moving laterally. The shooter will then turn 180 degrees, reversing and changing to the left hand. The shooter will then fire 1 shot per a target while moving laterally to the start location. The shooter will have 10 seconds to fire 8 rounds on 4 targets.

Scoring: is hit or miss, the shooter must achieve 1 hit per a target as well as achieving a total of 6 hits.

This course can be modified to the shooters ability by increasing/ decreasing round count and distance. Once the shooter has become proficient at 5 yards the distance should be increased by 5 additional yards.

This is a demonstration video of the drill.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV9druFM6Qs[/ame]
 
The “controlled pair” pistol drill.

The “controlled pair” pistol drill.

This drill is designed to build the shooters ability to fire a controlled pair with accuracy, the focus of the drill is not speed however the shooter should increase speed as much as possible with out diminishing accuracy.

Range: this drill requires 4 targets spaced 18 to 23 inch apart at a distance of 10 yards. The targets should be B27 type targets, it is recommended that a small bulls eye type target (6 inch shoot n see) be place center mass of the target.

Equipment: 1 pistol, 1 magazine capable of holding 8 rounds and a holster. 8 round is needed to complete this drill.

Course of fire: The shooter will be 10 yards from the targets, facing the targets with a pistol, loaded with 8 rounds in the holster. On the command “fire” (any command can be used) the shooter will have 8 seconds to draw the pistol, form a two handed grip and fire two rapid shots center mass of each target.

Scoring: is hit or miss (with in the 9 ring of the target) and shot groups should be under 4 inches.

This drill can be modified by increasing/ decreasing distance from the target; once the shooter has become proficient (shot groups under 2 inches) the distance should be increased by 5 yards.

This is a demonstration video of the drill:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5jCkQY45do[/ame]
 
Thanks to all. I am 61 and was having a terrible time the last couple of years shooting in low light. Finally went to the Doc and had cataracs(sp). Both lenses were replaced and shooting has improved. It is tough when you know you use to and no longer can. Some day a good shooting coach will work on an old guy program. :D
 
Just something to think about -
On the last video from the last shot back to "ready position" was less than a half second. One of my biggest critiques of target/competition shooters is they forget following on target. We always say we fight as we train but it's one of the most common things you see in IDPA/IPSC/3 Gun shooters. Often a "bad guy" doesn't go down with only two shots.

I'm not saying do the "gay cover the target" and swing the gun wildly back and forth in the target area, but keeping the gun out, reengaging the sear, and looking over the target area can save that split second that can save your life.

I also said the same thing to Todd Jarrett about one of his training videos. :cool:
 
koz said:
Just something to think about -
On the last video from the last shot back to "ready position" was less than a half second. One of my biggest critiques of target/competition shooters is they forget following on target. We always say we fight as we train but it's one of the most common things you see in IDPA/IPSC/3 Gun shooters. Often a "bad guy" doesn't go down with only two shots.

I'm not saying do the "gay cover the target" and swing the gun wildly back and forth in the target area, but keeping the gun out, reengaging the sear, and looking over the target area can save that split second that can save your life.

I also said the same thing to Todd Jarrett about one of his training videos. :cool:
Click to expand...

Excellent point, I am horrible about tracking the target. I think it’s more to do with being told on the comp side not to see the target fall, just to drive to the next target and fire. Kind of trust your sights thing, if you know your sights bounced out of the target when the shot broke that’s when you know to come back after the bank is complete.

Very good point out…
 
Sometimes when I am having people shoot steel, I will have one of the targets propped up so that it wont go down till I pull the rope. Almost everyone holsters after two shots or moves on to the next target before they realize that the previous target has not been "neutralized". A mistake that can get you killed. Of course I used to fire two or three, depending on the plan and move on myself. Wasn't till an instructor caught me the same way that I learned to change.
 
HOLLiS said:
You know Drills, those things that hold pointy things and spin them so that they make holes in stuff.
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Yeah, I've got those drills, and I know how to use em. :cool::D


But, I still can't shoot worth a shit. :doh:
 
NICE work Bro!
In our training the drill ALWAYS includes an immediate full reload for completion of the drill. :) (I mean immediately, as part of finishing the drill, if that makes sense.)

and NICE shooting!
 
Presidents Pistol Match (DCM)

DISTANCES:
50 yd. Slow (on B-6)
25 yd. Timed and Rapid (on B-8)

COURSES:
3 stages 40 shots fired with the Service Pistol

Slow fire Stage
2 strings of 10 shots each in 10 minutes (200)

Timed Fire Stage
2 strings of 5 shots each in 20 seconds (100)

Rapid Fire Stage
2 strings of 5 shots each in 10 seconds (100)
Click to expand...


This is by far my favorite pistol course of fire. This course is fired one handed and is a true testament of excellent marksmanship. Not a tactical/ practical course, just bare bones can you shoot or can you not.

On a little side note, I think people sometimes lose track of what good marksmanship is with a pistol. I would define good marksmanship is being able to shoot to the accuracy of the pistol. I think some times people get to wrapped around the axels with the “tactical” stuff. It’s always good to get back to the basic application of marksmanship fundamentals.

As for the video’s I posted, they were shot on my lunch break and were only intended to show the drill. The point of this thread was not to get into tactics and/ or “tactical shooting” but more so to be a place for someone to learn with out paying out the ass to see a trainer (not to say they should not down the road). However a lot of this stuff can be learned with a little bit of reading, demonstration and devotion.

I can punch holes in anyone’s training and or shooting pictures/ videos, I use to do it when I was training instructors at the TF SARG school house. ;) So if you have a few courses of fire, training tips, pictures or videos you would like to post, by all means post them! :evil:
 
J.A.B. said:
As for the video’s I posted, they were shot on my lunch break and were only intended to show the drill. The point of this thread was not to get into tactics and/ or “tactical shooting” but more so to be a place for someone to learn with out paying out the ass to see a trainer (not to say they should not down the road). However a lot of this stuff can be learned with a little bit of reading, demonstration and devotion.
Click to expand...
And well done, Bro! The ideas and the work you do is appreciated!
Keep it up JAB! One of the concept's I'm getting from your posts is to NEVER forget that the BASICS of marksmanship still apply with pistol shooting. I have found this to be true in our classes. If a person can't hit the target, it sure as hell don't matter how fast/tactically they got off their misses. Keep up the great work J! It's Appreciated, by folks like me who are learning most on our own without High Speed instruction.
 

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