Poser Busting

[LimaPanther]

I think the biggest I’ve seen is SOF looking down on other SOF, eat your own type stuff. “Oh, he’s only TACP, not CCT?” “He’s CCT but not JTAC?” “He’s an 18B because he was too dumb to be a D”

Guess things have changed since I was with a Group. But then again, back in my day, you weren't in the 18 series. Most of us were with the MOS we went to the Group with. I was an 11C and crossed trained in all the other MOS'. We all worked together.

 

[Marauder06]

Guess things have changed since I was with a Group. But then again, back in my day, you weren't in the 18 series. Most of us were with the MOS we went to the Group with. I was an 11C and crossed trained in all the other MOS'. We all worked together.

In Group they even make us support guys wear a different color hat, to remind us of our subservient status. AFAIK it's the only SOF unit like that, and it wasn't always the case.

"You're in the unit, but you're not REALLY in the unit."

 

[LimaPanther]

In Group they even make us support guys wear a different color hat, to remind us of our subservient status. AFAIK it's the only SOF unit like that, and it wasn't always the case.

"You're in the unit, but you're not REALLY in the unit."

Different color hats may be good, but then again things have changed. Back in the day I almost went off when I saw a female in Class A's wearing a Green Beret with full flash and not a candy bar. Was told to cool it because she was finance support assigned to Group. Back in the day even motor pool could wear the beret. Also remember when you could get the "S" prefix attached to your MOS without going through Q.

 

[compforce]

Different color hats may be good, but then again things have changed. Back in the day I almost went off when I saw a female in Class A's wearing a Green Beret with full flash and not a candy bar. Was told to cool it because she was finance support assigned to Group. Back in the day even motor pool could wear the beret. Also remember when you could get the "S" prefix attached to your MOS without going through Q.

We may have been in the same place at the same time. 5th Group on Ft Campbell had a female in a full flash beret that was walking around about 8 months pregnant when I saw her. 87-88 time frame. She worked right across the street from the Eagle's Roost Rec Center and the bowling alley.

ETA: You can still be awarded an "S" as support. 18 series don't get it but we could. Now it's supposed to mean that you have experience and success in a SOF slot so when you're PCSing they know to send you to Group if there's a slot available. Or at least to prioritize you for an open Group slot over someone without the "S"

 

[LimaPanther]

We may have been in the same place at the same time. 5th Group on Ft Campbell had a female in a full flash beret that was walking around about 8 months pregnant when I saw her. 87-88 time frame. She worked right across the street from the Eagle's Roost Rec Center and the bowling alley.

ETA: You can still be awarded an "S" as support. 18 series don't get it but we could. Now it's supposed to mean that you have experience and success in a SOF slot so when you're PCSing they know to send you to Group if there's a slot available. Or at least to prioritize you for an open Group slot over someone without the "S"

The female I saw was in the early 70s. Back in the 60s an "S" meant you were SF qualified. By the way, I was with the 10th when the whole Group was in Germany. That was when the flash had the German colors on it. Also I was in before Robin Sage. The final FTX went by a few names but I remember when it was Gobbler's Woods. Shows my age.

 

[Cookie_]

ETA: You can still be awarded an "S" as support. 18 series don't get it but we could. Now it's supposed to mean that you have experience and success in a SOF slot so when you're PCSing they know to send you to Group if there's a slot available. Or at least to prioritize you for an open Group slot over someone without the "S"

It's something like 24 months in group support or 12 months of deployment time. First COL in the chain approves it.

 

[Marauder06]

ETA: You can still be awarded an "S" as support. 18 series don't get it but we could. Now it's supposed to mean that you have experience and success in a SOF slot so when you're PCSing they know to send you to Group if there's a slot available. Or at least to prioritize you for an open Group slot over someone without the "S"

That would require SF Command and the respective branches to care about support troops going to Group, which IMO, neither of them do.

 

[compforce]

That would require SF Command and the respective branches to care about support troops going to Group, which IMO, neither of them do.

I've known several that had it, mostly SOT-A that met the deployment time requirement in Iraq and Afghan. In general you're correct though, it's far from automatic.

 

[DA SWO]

That would require SF Command and the respective branches to care about support troops going to Group, which IMO, neither of them do.

SF and ST like to crap on their support guys for some reason.

 

[Johca]

SF and ST like to crap on their support guys for some reason.

Interesting, the poster with the three arrow patch representing the correct way, wrong way, and the clueless way (an old MAC/AMC MAJCOM joke) must be talking about the bus drivers (HC-130, helicopter, V-22 Pilots). If so, it started back in 1953 when the Air Rescue Service (ARS)/CC told his squadron commanders the flying mission statement of the ARS is to deploy and support pararescue and to never forget it. Well, they forgot it and this is why ARS is no more, but we still have the bus drivers that still need to be reminded of their place.

On a more serious no BS note I would argue at least policy guidance wise the ST community and RQS Pararescue community do take care of the support folks quite well. Even back in the day treating the support folks like crap wasn't tolerated and I should know as I was the immediate supervisor of a few of them during my career.

 

[Marauder06]

Individually, I was treated very well as a support guy in 5th Group. Organizationally, it was a different story. "I" was treated very well. "We" were treated like shit.

Before continuing this post, I want to make it clear that I am not shitting on 5th Group or the SF Regiment. 5th Group was very good to me. I commanded twice there, had my first deployment there, earned my first Bronze Star there, got my first-ever "top block" OERs there (from SF officers, no less). Being in an SF unit set me up for everything that came after. I am grateful for all of that. One of the reasons I'm passionate about this issue is because I care about the SF Regiment, even though I'm not part of it. And I have seen, based on personal experience in, and observation of, other SOF units, how good an organization can truly been when everyone on the team is specially selected, trained, and evaluated before being brought into the unit, and valued for what they do when they get there.

But having experienced Group as well as other SOF assignments outside of Group, as a support guy I would never go back to an SF unit and I advise other support types to only go to Group if that's literally the only way you can get your foot into the SOF door. Here's why:

Setting aside the aforementioned issue of "we put you in a different color hat to remind you of your subservient status," I have a couple of other vignettes, which I think I mentioned here on the site more than once. Early in my time in Group, I was at a Group-level staff meeting once when the Group S2 mentioned that he was sending two intel analysts to Pathfinder database training. One of the SF field grades in the meeting pitched a fit over "sending support guys to Pathfinder School." First of all, this wasn't Pathfinder School. It was training for an intelligence database program called Pathfinder. And he wasn't mad that support guys were taking school slots away from team guys; we had a Pathfinder school right there at Fort Campbell and SF guys seemed to have no problem getting into the course if they wanted to, which, frankly, most of them did not. This guy's issue was that a support guy would get to go to Pathfinder at all. "Support guys don't need it." Let's be honest, no one "needs" to go to Badgefinder Pathfinder School (that's why it doesn't exist anymore). But if you could give the people in your unit the opportunity, why wouldn't you? "Because fuck you, support guys."

Also, shortly before we left for my first tour in Iraq, we received a large shipment of the then-new MICH helmets. I had built some rapport with the SF guy in charge of the supply room, and when I asked him for helmets for my guys, the Group MI Detachment, he balked. He gave me a MICH, because "you're the commander" and he liked me. But he wouldn't let my guys come sign for them, guys that included the SOTAs that were going out on missions with the Team guys. Why? "Because support guys don't need them." But... this is the new hotness, an objectively better helmet, supposedly better for jumps and everything, and you have enough to go around for everyone... Nope. "Fuck you, support guys, you don't need it." I gave my MICH to my driver and used the old Kevlar. I wasn't going to have something that my people didn't.

Because none of the SF guys wanted to command the Group Support Company (an 18-coded MAJ position), they put me (35E CPT) in charge of it. When I did the change of command inventories I found boxes and boxes of optics (EOTech and ACOG) and oodles of other goodies, boxed up in the supply room. Why? "Support guys don't need it." Bro, we're going to Iraq. I want all of this shit issued out before the next time we go to the range. And yeah, I want everyone in the company in a MICH.

What the actual fuck... .

When I was at the 160th, the culture was totally different. I attribute that to two things that were absent from Group. First, pilots innately understand that they can't do everything themselves, and they don't want to. Culturally, SF guys are taught that they can do everything meaningful themselves, and that support guys are just there to do the shit they don't want to do. Secondly, every other comparable ARSOF unit has a selection, assessment, and training program for its support troops. SF didn't when I was there 20 years ago, and I don't think they have one now. So there was no sense that one had to "earn" one's way into Group as a support guy... and rightly so. And because an assignment to Group was "needs of the Army," we got some real dirtbags in the unit. I remember when I was in the 160th we booted an intel analyst over an OPSEC violation, and he went across the airfields and got picked up by 5th Group.

Great job, guys!

Going back to the example of Pathfinder School, in the 160th we regularly got slots to Pathfinder but there was a very high attrition rate in the program. Not quite as bad as Jumpmaster, but still up there. So one day my battalion got two slots, and the conversation went something like this: "Who do we have who is probably smart enough to pass Pathfinder? I don't know, maybe the S2." And that's how I got to go. I would never have been allowed to do something similar in Group. That was the attitude in the 160th--what can we do to help our people? ALL of our people, not just the ops types. Between having a tryout process, and treating their support people well, you might imagine that there was a noticeable difference between the level of support provided in the 160th compared to 5th Group. And that made the 160th a better unit (as in, 160th was made better internally because of it, I'm not comparing the 160th to 5th Group overall).

It was very similar at JSOC. I had to try out to be there, and I had to demonstrate competence to stay there. JSOC thought intel was important, and they had highly competent intel types doing it. In 5th Group, the best intel guy was the 18Z on your team. Very different cultures. Very different results.

 

[Johca]

Different color hats may be good, but then again things have changed.

Color of hat has no standardized purpose as the Army tends to orient towards being an organization or branch identity and the Air Force being a mix of organization and occupation specialty identity. So color does have some significance.

The Special Forces beret represents and identifies a branch and personnel holding several specific 18 series MOSs. The Ranger beret represents and identifies personnel assigned to the 75th Ranger regiment. It lacks purpose of identifying an MOS in the same way the SF beret does.
The Air Force beret are either duty oriented with assignment to specific organizations or occupation specialty (AFSC) specific. For example, the Air Force Security Forces (Police) beret began as an organizational duty head gear. It's now Security Forces career field specific. The Grey weather beret began as a duty headgear for anybody holding a weather AFSC who was assigned to a parachutist duty coded position. The same with the Combat Control to identify individuals in a parachutist coded duty position no earlier than 1971 (CCT shred to ATC AFSC established). The TACP beret was organizational headgear that also didn't become AFSC specific no earlier than April 1977 (AFSC established). The PJ beret and beret device (badge) was authorized as an AFSC identifying AFSC effective 1 June 1966.

 

[TLDR20]

I think the issue with SF support not being treated well comes back to the extreme lack of selection. Some of the support people are not even airborne qualified.

Right or wrong a not small percentage of SF guys first interaction with a support soldier is when they in process at group and battalion. So S1, and in my experience S1 soldiers in group are some of the worst soldiers in the Army(broad generalization).

Now if all the support kids had to go through even a one day selection, or an interview, it might make a difference. My advice to any support kid will always be, don’t let a team guy be better at your job than you, or you will never be respected.

 

[Devildoc]

SF and ST like to crap on their support guys for some reason.

Talking to my Navy SOIDC buddies, most tend to think they get treated better, as better teammates, with recon than MARSOC. A couple of them feel like they are treated like 'support' and not integrated into the team. I do not know if this is team/unit-centric or cultural.

 

[AWP]

I think the issue with SF support not being treated well comes back to the extreme lack of selection. Some of the support people are not even airborne qualified.

Right or wrong a not small percentage of SF guys first interaction with a support soldier is when they in process at group and battalion. So S1, and in my experience S1 soldiers in group are some of the worst soldiers in the military(broad generalization).

Now if all the support kids had to go through even a one day selection, or an interview, it might make a difference. My advice to any support kid will always be, don’t let a team guy be better at your job than you, or you will never be respected.

I love this. No homo. You hit it on the head.

 

[Marauder06]

I think the issue with SF support not being treated well comes back to the extreme lack of selection. Some of the support people are not even airborne qualified.

Right or wrong a not small percentage of SF guys first interaction with a support soldier is when they in process at group and battalion. So S1, and in my experience S1 soldiers in group are some of the worst soldiers in the military(broad generalization).

Now if all the support kids had to go through even a one day selection, or an interview, it might make a difference. My advice to any support kid will always be, don’t let a team guy be better at your job than you, or you will never be respected.

^this is an excellent summary of the root cause of the problem, and its result.

 

[Viper1]

I concur with @Marauder06 and @TLDR20 assessment. I was fortunate to command two support companies in two different groups. The second command (no UCMJ actions) was less arduous than the first (a few UCMJ actions and tab revocations).

1SFC is the only unit in USASOC too lazy to figure out how to implement an assessment and selection program for its support soldiers (and officers) and it shows. It is unfortunate and just requires NCOs and Officers to do some detailed planning and persuade their GOs to go for it.

I attribute support soldier performance to good leadership from the NCO ranks, GB and non-GB. Most of the NCOs in my technical support company had served in other units and brought a level of maturity that prevented problems and onboarded support soldiers with good attitude and expectations.

A lot of support NCOs in my first command at 3SFG had grown up in group or SOF and some of them thought themselves too cool for school. Thankfully the 1SG set them straight. For the most part, if the soldiers felt a part of something bigger; they were good teammates. GBs could have never gotten the job done without them and being quiet professionals they earned praise from the GBs.

If 1SFC is too lazy to do an A&S for enlisted then they need to do it with officers. I don’t need a brand new SPO or GSB S3 who has never been in SOF and questions why GBs need things. To @Marauder06 point, GBs are reticent to ask for help so when they do ask for help, they really do need it. First thing S3 did was ask me why, and I had to take a deep breath and remain calm instead of doing violence. He was a decent guy but the wrong mindset for SF and SOF. An A&S likely would have found that and picked someone else.

 

[TLDR20]

Talking to my Navy SOIDC buddies, most tend to think they get treated better, as better teammates, with recon than MARSOC. A couple of them feel like they are treated like 'support' and not integrated into the team. I do not know if this is team/unit-centric or cultural.

I’ve never heard of them referred to as support.

 

[Devildoc]

I’ve never heard of them referred to as support.

Neither had I. My experience--in infantry, wing, and FSSG (support)--is that corpsmen are pretty well integrated into the unit/team/platoon. My belief is that it was team-specific and not a broader cultural thing, but I don't know.

 

[Johca]

The second command (no UCMJ actions) was less arduous than the first (a few UCMJ actions and tab revocations).

Wow, I have known of the badges and Tab revocation policies for decades, but this is the first I've ever heard of such revocations actually happening. I've known of Air Force servicemembers being court martialed and sent as convicts for a many years stint as a prisoner in Ft Leavenworth and their permanently awarded parachutist and aviation badges were never revoked.