PTSD/Suicide on Special Operations Forces members, doubts..

[EliasBR]

I was wondering about this matter, is any study that points out the rates of PTSD or even suicide on SOF members?

I don't know if there is any recent study about this, but does anyone know if conventional soldiers are more susceptible to acquire PTSD than special operations soldiers?

Aside of that, proportionally speaking, conventional soldiers suffers PTSD or commit suicide more than SOF soldiers?

 

[AWP]

This is a very touchy subject and I would advise anyone who responds to tread lightly. I know of at least two on this board who were diagnosed with PTSD, one is SOF and the other is conventional. I'm trying to change my avatar, so let's keep any discussion calm.

 

[RackMaster]

Having worked in both worlds and being diagnosed with PTSD, I'll give you some of my insight. I have not seen any medical/mental health studies being done on specific branches of service, in any country. It does not mean that it hasn't/isn't being done but I highly doubt anything to do with SOF will not be released for public consumption.

From what I've personally endured, witnessed and learned about PTSD and all related mental health diagnosis related to service; it is a crap shoot on who gets it. It can onset right after trauma or 10-20-60 years later, it all depends. So I don't think it matters on conventional or SOF, plus most SOF guys were conventional at one point. ;)

EliasBR Why are you asking?

 

[reed11b]

I work at a Vet Center and my counseling team treats primarily PTSD. There is documentation that suggests that PTSD and suicide rates are statistically lower in SOF troops. My personal experience suggests that this is not true and that at least in the case of PTSD, it is only severely under reported.
Reed

 

[digrar]

I've lost two mates to PTSD related suicide from a SOF unit down here.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

One big defining issue is the mental aspect, the stronger mind vs the not so strong minded. SOF is able to select individuals who are mentally tough and who have proven to be in that stronger mind category. The conventional side does not have that selection process to weed out weaker minded individuals. To put it very simply, SOF has psychologist that are trained to identify those characteristics common with people who commit suicide, who cannot take long term stress, etc.

The other aspect is as reed11B pointed out, most type A hard chargers are not going to seek help in the mental health arena. Even though the Army says it will not affect your career to seek mental help, it’s a bit of a different story when your duties are to run around with a shit ton of weapons and make split second decisions on who should live or die. The Army tends to want put you on light duty/no weapons profile when you are diagnosed with PTSD. So why would any soldier SOF or CF report problems, or seek mental help, if you know your career could very well be over b/c of it? The simple answer is they don’t and they won’t, it will take an issue coming up, or it will be leadership directed situation before most will cross that threshold.

I would like to see a study on PTSD & Suicide in support career fields vs combat arms career fields for SOF & CF. Based on what I saw at the WTB at FT Sam Houston, there were a lot more support types being treated for “PTSD” or put on the “black list” then there were combat arms tyoes.

By the way I am diagnosed with severe PTSD...

 

[EliasBR]

RackMaster I just think it is a interesting subject to discuss about, on my part it's just a matter of curiosity since I'm by no means related to the military after all, but I know it's a subject that is getting more and more spotlight now that the GWOT is a little more than a decade-old.

My doubt has begun when I ask the same question in the commentary section of another SOF-related website (I don't know if I'm allowed to name the website, so I just won't name it), and I've got some interesting answers from guys who are former and current SOF members, and one of them said that as far as they know from PAs, articles, informations within SOCOM, is that SOF troops have a much lower rate of PTSD than soldiers on the conventional side, but the reasons are still unknown, some of them said the probable reasons for this result is that SOF are generally older and more experienced than conventional soldiers (excluding the Rangers), SOF venues have mentally tough selection and this results in more mentally tough soldiers, etc. So, I thought it would be interesting to bring this question here since there is a lot of former and current SOF members and the format of discussion forum helps the flow of the discussion.

Thank you guys for some of the insight, I hope this topic keeps getting answers like yours. ;)

 

[HOLLiS]

There are a lot of variables. What exacerbated the problem in the Viet-Nam war conflict was how it was decided that people would go into country and leave. Prior to that whole units would rotate in and rotate out. In the RVN was it was more individual.

Part of PTSD is that it needs to dealt with early after the incident. Having people around to help you put the event into perspective helps. In WWII, whole units would come home, families would join the troops, and pretty much people help to debrief each other on traumatic events.

Not all of us are the same in how we handle traumatic events, some are talkative, where as other may become silent about the event.

How it is initially dealt with has a lot to do whether or not the effects of PTSD is patterned in the person brain. Delaying that process only insures PTSD becomes part of the person's personality.

I am not sure if the mentally tough selection process is a defense in the issue of PTSD. Until one goes into combat, there are a lot of things that will become real for them. A lot of personal questions will be answered. Developing a cold, unattached attitude is a part of PTSD. Some may think it is a defense against PTSD.

The book may be old, but it may still help the families of those who serve in combat areas, Recovering from the War, by Patience Mason. Her husband wrote Chicken Hawk. The VA, had a video about her talking about this issue.

My POV, is that what we hear from the media and other sources do not reflect or come close to what PTSD is. IMHO, it is a part of surviving the combat experience. I tend to think Suicide is another issue to surviving the combat experience and it may or may not be a actual part of PTSD.

From a course on Suicide by the FBI, they stated that one a person reaches a point where they are helpless and hopeless, that suicide becomes a real possibility. (IIRC). There are aspects of PTSD that will/can add to a person sense of hopelessness and helplessness. Survivor quilt is one of them. When one has given up everything, there is nothing left to loose. Also in combat a person will see a part of them that is horrifying for a normal person. The ability to destory another human being and maybe even pleasure from that. I think, there can be a fear when one comes home that part of them could come out, and that they may harm a love one. This maybe a part of why after returning from Viet-Nam there was a spike in suicides. There were absolutely no help, no information......... nadda back then for the Vet. How that may apply today, I don't know. Combat can be a mind F....... on a major scale.

I believe being a cohesive unit has a lot to do with dealing with the trauma of combat and lessening the chances of PTSD. Burying the trauma only adds to the possibility of having PTSD.

Another Note: 20 years ago, when PTSD was become something most people have heard about, councilors at the VA mentioned that WWII and Korean vets where coming. Some people where about to bury it deep enough, where it took decades for it to rise to the surface.

Part of the human mind to survive, is to set something aside until it is safe to deal with it. A traumatic event can be set aside/buried until a safe time for the mind to place it into "perspective" or find balance. The problem, that usually does not happened. Kind of like burying a bottle of Kim Chi in your refrigerator for years. As it sets buried, it build up pressure.

Having friends/Brothers/Sisters that can share those traumatic events and discuss them is a big plus. Being a loner or isolated makes it much more difficult.

 

[EliasBR]

Excellent points.

Aside from the mental toughness perspective, one think that I've read on Dick Couch's book "Sua Sponte" that I found very interesting was that he says the Patriotism (which is one of the six aptitudes that apply variously to all SOF ground-combat components) is what returns them home mentally and morally intact ("the deep-seated belief that a warrior, in uniform in the service of his nation, has the moral authority to take human life"). What do you guys think about it? .. Please, keep talking about the mental toughness perspective too, this is getting very interesting.

 

[HOLLiS]

Excellent points.

Aside from the mental toughness perspective, one think that I've read on Dick Couch's book "Sua Sponte" that I found very interesting was that he says the Patriotism (which is one of the six aptitudes that apply variously to all SOF ground-combat components) is what returns them home mentally and morally intact ("the deep-seated belief that a warrior, in uniform in the service of his nation, has the moral authority to take human life"). What do you guys think about it? .. Please, keep talking about the mental toughness perspective too, this is getting very interesting.

I guess I would like to know who you are and why you are interested?

 

[EliasBR]

I guess I would like to know who you are and why you are interested?

Here is my intro -> http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/my-introduction.15310/

My interest comes from curiosity since there is no studies talking about PTSD on SOF members, if you guys want to keep talking about it, it would be great to hear from you since most of the members here have military backgrounds and for this reason I guess this is the right place to ask about it, if you don't want to keep talking about it, fine, I just thought it would not have a problem.

 

[HOLLiS]

Here is my intro -> http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/my-introduction.15310/

My interest comes from curiosity since there is no studies talking about PTSD on SOF members, if you guys want to keep talking about it, it would be great to hear from you since most of the members here have military backgrounds and for this reason I guess this is the right place to ask about it, if you don't want to keep talking about it, fine, I just thought it would not have a problem.

My thoughts, get naked in front of a bunch of people, have them probe you where ever. Would there be a problem. As a nation, we are coming to terms with mental issues. Some how the common view is very negative and harmful to the person. President Clinton placed over 130,000 vets on incompetency list to purchase firearms because of PTSD. It violate all the rules of the psychiatric profession for incompetency but it still happened. President Bush signed into law, a bill reversing that, but nothing was done.

That is one part.

The other part is the media and movies in their dealing with PTSD.

I would suggest, reading about it, there is a lot out there. Personally, unless you been there it is none of your business. I have over 40 years of experiences in this issue to know, those who have not been there don't know, care to know and telling them is a complete waste of time. It is one of those things, if you know, you know. If you don't know, no one can explain it to you.

You still have not explained it to me, why you are interested in PTSD. Why should I get naked before you?

 

[EliasBR]

My thoughts, get naked in front of a bunch of people, have them probe you where ever. Would there be a problem. As a nation, we are coming to terms with mental issues. Some how the common view is very negative and harmful to the person. President Clinton placed over 130,000 vets on incompetency list to purchase firearms because of PTSD. It violate all the rules of the psychiatric profession for incompetency but it still happened. President Bush signed into law, a bill reversing that, but nothing was done.

That is one part.

The other part is the media and movies in their dealing with PTSD.

I would suggest, reading about it, there is a lot out there. Personally, unless you been there it is none of your business. I have over 40 years of experiences in this issue to know, those who have not been there don't know, care to know and telling them is a complete waste of time. It is one of those things, if you know, you know. If you don't know, no one can explain it to you.

You still have not explained it to me, why you are interested in PTSD. Why should I get naked before you?

I'm not telling you to tell me the effects of PTSD (I didn't even ask this), as I will not try to explain to you the effects of depression (which I have) because you won't understand it if you don't have it, this doesn't mean people who don't have it are not allowed to talk about it. Since I opened this thread, my only purpose was to talk about the PTSD rates on SOF and make some correlation between it and the CF PTSD rates, rates, not effects.

I just want to know if the rates of PTSD are lower on SOF and if the cause of it it's their mental toughness or any other cause, since what I admire in most of them (SOF members) is their mental toughness, even in my intro I say it "I think these men are kind of a special breed of human beings, and what I admire most about them is their mental toughness", again, I don't want to know the effects of PTSD, just if SOF members have PTSD in a lower rate compared to their CF counterparts and the possible cause of this difference, since there are a lot in the know here, I guess it's the right place to ask.

 

[Marauder06]

Training, discipline, and primary group bonds are three of the things that make an effective group. Where these things are strong, they can help fend off the physical and mental entropy inherent in combat operations. My unscientific and unresearched opinion is that PTSD and suicides are in fact likely to be lower in SOF than in other units, because the three things I mentioned are typically higher in these units, which helps develop coping mechanisms that allow people to deal with issues maybe a little bit better than in some other units. Many of the SOF types I know who are dealing with PTSD and/or mental health issues only started showing symptoms AFTER they left SOF units.

 

[goon175]

Don't we already have a quite lengthy and in-depth discussion on here regarding this topic?

 

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

Don't we already have a quite lengthy and in-depth discussion on here regarding this topic?

There are a few in the Combat Medicine section. A search of "PTSD" with the "Search Titles Only" option checked may have helped him with his curiosity... or not. I haven't read through those threads, so I can't give a definite answer, but there are threads on this site regarding PTSD...

Elias, have you read those threads yet?

 

[EliasBR]

There are a few in the Combat Medicine section. A search of "PTSD" with the "Search Titles Only" option checked may have helped him with his curiosity... or not. I haven't read through those threads, so I can't give a definite answer, but there are threads on this site regarding PTSD...

Elias, have you read those threads yet?

Yes, none of them as far as I read is regarding this specific subject about PTSD on SOF members, anyway, thanks for the few guys who had the pacience to answer some of my questions.


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[AWP]

Elias, I'm leaving this thread open for now. While I don't believe you have a malicious intent, I think you may be too inquisitive for your own good on this topic. As you can see, it is a sensitive subject for some.

My advice to you, do with it as you will, is to sit back and let this thread develop. If 100 people post or no one posts, that's all well and good. I'm not attempting to stifle discussion, but this topic has, is, and will be an "open sore" for many. Issues of the brain, whatever they may be and whatever the cause, are delicate and as such some folks don't like to talk about them. In many cases they went years without help (and some still do), because of a variety of reasons; your first instinct is simply "No, not me. The doc is wrong, I'm fine."

I would sit back, let the thread develop, and in the meantime read the board...you'll be surprised at what you can learn about us and your fellow man.

Take care.

 

[EliasBR]

Elias, I'm leaving this thread open for now. While I don't believe you have a malicious intent, I think you may be too inquisitive for your own good on this topic. As you can see, it is a sensitive subject for some.

My advice to you, do with it as you will, is to sit back and let this thread develop. If 100 people post or no one posts, that's all well and good. I'm not attempting to stifle discussion, but this topic has, is, and will be an "open sore" for many. Issues of the brain, whatever they may be and whatever the cause, are delicate and as such some folks don't like to talk about them. In many cases they went years without help (and some still do), because of a variety of reasons; your first instinct is simply "No, not me. The doc is wrong, I'm fine."

I would sit back, let the thread develop, and in the meantime read the board...you'll be surprised at what you can learn about us and your fellow man.

Take care.

Yes sir, I figured out that is a sensitive topic after some heated answers, which I found surprising. And you are right, I have no malicious intent, I'm just a enthusiast of the SOF world, and as one, my intent was just the discussion and not by no means to provoke, and this subject was some sort of curiosity, I just didn't know that it would take some negative comments after a while.

Anyway, I got it man, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Worldweaver]

I just want to know if the rates of PTSD are lower on SOF and if the cause of it it's their mental toughness or any other cause, since what I admire in most of them (SOF members) is their mental toughness, even in my intro I say it "I think these men are kind of a special breed of human beings, and what I admire most about them is their mental toughness", again, I don't want to know the effects of PTSD, just if SOF members have PTSD in a lower rate compared to their CF counterparts and the possible cause of this difference, since there are a lot in the know here, I guess it's the right place to ask.

I would also avoid referring to men that suffer from PTSD as less mentally tough or mentally weak.