PTSD/Suicide on Special Operations Forces members, doubts..

Thanks for opening it again.

First of all, I want to explain the heated argument. I just answered that way because of his evasiveness argument, since I was being really sincere on why I was interested on this subject. I'm not immature to have hurt feelings for this little discussion, it happens, I just hope we can work this out and get past this episode, ok HOLLiS?

Well, I will explain the origin of my question, and I think this way it's going to get clear.. I always thought that the mental toughness of SOF members were a big differential when compared to the CF units (since I started to read about SOF), because of the screening/selection process, and this way SOF members were less susceptible to get PTSD. As you see, it was just an assumption, then I read ''The forging of a Modern Ranger'' by Dick Couch, and what really intrigued me was his comment about Patriotism (''which is one of the six aptitudes that apply variously to all SOF ground-combat components''), when he says this was the reason why ground combatants returns home mentally and morally intact. As I was reading it I just got more interested on the subject and this question came to my mind, if there is a difference on the rates of PTSD on CF and SOF members, and IF there is, why? is this mental toughness? or any other cause?

The answers above are really satisfying as I'm learning a lot. :thumbsup:

Thanks guys.

I really hope there isn't hurt feelings here.
 
Marauder06 said:
I don't think it's an insult to suggest that some people may be psychologically stronger than others. It doesn't mean those others are psychologically "weak" or "inferior," just that others are stronger in that particular area. I think the evidence for this is that two men can be in the exact same set of situations for the exact same period of time, yet one of them will develop PTSD and the other won't. What is the difference? Genes? The way they were raised? Differing levels of psychologocal stamina? I'm inclined to believe it might be all three, but if I had to pick one, it would be the latter. Again, it doesn't mean one of the two was "weak," it means that the other is "stronger" somehow.
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I believe it's because of individuals perception of events and not anything to do with being psychologically strong or weak. If certain people are able to understand and cope with events through faith, friendship, or other healthy mechanisms then they are more likely to deal successfully with traumatic events. Others may not be as successful with these coping mechanisms and exacerbate their stressors, or use alcohol or drugs to "help". In my opinion that doesn't make people more or less psychologically "tough". Obviously, in society, there is a spectrum from the emotionally resilient to the those more susceptible to stress or trauma, however, we aren't talking about some thumb sucker in his parents basement. For the most part these are grown men who have encountered several stresses during Military service and would be on the emotionally resilient side of the spectrum.
 
reed11b said:
P.S. pardus the reason I disagreed with your post is that the individuals you described do NOT have PTSD, they have sandyvaginitus. This is a completely different dis-order caused by the lack of spine.
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I don't think it is a matter of agreement or disagreement. As you grow older, your opinion will change, and change........... Yes, there are those who exploit the program, for the sake of a decent discussion on this issue, I would say...... "Ignore them." The "P" part is undefined, when does it kick in, how much will change over time? All is a part of the Post part. Talk to the counselors who have talked to vets who served 50 or more year ago and are finally starting to actually deal with something that happened more than 50 years ago.

This is a personalized issued. so disagree, agree, but at least think about it and as Loon said, "Even with PTSD, YOU HAVE A CHOICE to make your situation better"
 
EliasBR said:
??

Maybe it's some of the language barrier, I didn't get your answer.
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Elias, I think what they are trying to say is sit back and learn (as you say you are) from this thread. No disrespect intended to you (I'm not military yet, but I am family of multiple military veterans), but this is a touchy subject and just by reading the back and fourth from one to the next on this thread, I have learned much more than I thought I could. In short...let them continue what is now THEIR thread, with minimal to no interruption. Again, no disrespect just trying to clear the "barrier"...

To everyone else, If I have stepped out of my lane...My sincerest apologies, be gentle!
 
EliasBR, what is your civilian occupation or are you a student? Is it related to the military in any way or medical, mental health?

I think the that you need to focus on the basics of PTSD; not just why a certain SOF soldier does or not develop it. Patriotism has nothing to do with it and it's not isolated to the US or Brazil; I'm sure there are a lot of conscripts or child soldiers around the world with PTSD that would love to explain it to you. As well the I know a lot of conventional dudes that are pretty mentally fucking tough. Don't take offence but your questions are a bit naive and ignorant; it's like this study: PTSD Among Ethnic Minority Veterans.

If you can't find the answers out there, then they don't exist for you to see and probably won't for some time. What I am trying to say and so was HOLLiS is that it can't be measured like anything else; it can take decades to appear as well. I personally know Veterans from the Korean War that are just getting diagnosed up here.

In Canada we use a different term because of the complex nature of mental health and it's not just PTSD that people are affected by. But all needed to be initially treated the same. We call it an Operational Stress Injury, we will all suffer from something and even substance abuse is a mental illness; which is more than likely covering up something more.

An operational stress injury (OSI) is any persistent psychological difficulty resulting from operational duties performed by a Canadian Forces member. The term OSI is used to describe a broad range of problems which usually result in impairment in functioning. OSIs include diagnosed medical conditions such as anxiety, depression and post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as well as a range of less severe conditions, but the term OSI is not intended to be used in a medical or legal context.
http://www.osiss.ca/engraph/def_e.asp?sidecat=1
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Here's a couple great resources, I suggest you do some reading and reread what others have posted here.

http://www.ptsdsupport.net/complete_PTSD.html

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/



DSM Criteria for PTSD

What is PILOTS?
Search PILOTS, the largest citation database on PTSD.
In 2000, the American Psychiatric Association revised the PTSD diagnostic criteria in the fourth edition of its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)(1). The diagnostic criteria (A-F) are specified below.
Diagnostic criteria for PTSD include a history of exposure to a traumatic event meeting two criteria and symptoms from each of three symptom clusters: intrusive recollections, avoidant/numbing symptoms, and hyper-arousal symptoms. A fifth criterion concerns duration of symptoms and a sixth assesses functioning.
Criterion A: stressor

The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following have been present:
  1. The person has experienced, witnessed, or been confronted with an event or events that involve actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of oneself or others.
  2. The person's response involved intense fear,helplessness, or horror. Note: in children, it may be expressed instead by disorganized or agitated behavior.
Criterion B: intrusive recollection

The traumatic event is persistently re-experienced in at least one of the following ways:
  1. Recurrent and intrusive distressing recollections of the event, including images, thoughts, or perceptions. Note: in young children, repetitive play may occur in which themes or aspects of the trauma are expressed.
  2. Recurrent distressing dreams of the event. Note: in children, there may be frightening dreams without recognizable content
  3. Acting or feeling as if the traumatic event were recurring (includes a sense of reliving the experience, illusions, hallucinations, and dissociative flashback episodes,including those that occur upon awakening or when intoxicated). Note: in children, trauma-specific reenactment may occur.
  4. Intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event.
  5. Physiologic reactivity upon exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event
Criterion C: avoidant/numbing

Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as indicated by at least three of the following:
  1. Efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma
  2. Efforts to avoid activities, places, or people that arouse recollections of the trauma
  3. Inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma
  4. Markedly diminished interest or participation in significant activities
  5. Feeling of detachment or estrangement from others
  6. Restricted range of affect (e.g., unable to have loving feelings)
  7. Sense of foreshortened future (e.g., does not expect to have a career, marriage, children, or a normal life span)
Criterion D: hyper-arousal

Persistent symptoms of increasing arousal (not present before the trauma), indicated by at least two of the following:
  1. Difficulty falling or staying asleep
  2. Irritability or outbursts of anger
  3. Difficulty concentrating
  4. Hyper-vigilance
  5. Exaggerated startle response
Criterion E: duration

Duration of the disturbance (symptoms in B, C, and D) is more than one month.
Criterion F: functional significance

The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
Specify if:

Acute: if duration of symptoms is less than three months
Chronic: if duration of symptoms is three months or more
Specify if:

With or Without delay onset: Onset of symptoms at least six months after the stressor
References

  1. American Psychiatric Association. (2000). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (Revised 4th ed.). Washington, DC: Author.
Date Created: 07/05/2007 See last Reviewed/Updated Date below.
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EliasBR said:
The answers above are really satisfying as I'm learning a lot:thumbsup:
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Why? Why are you trying to "learn" anything in regard to this subject? I tried to look at your profile to get some indication as to your background and it says you have it hidden.

Are you a college student? Are you former military?

It's not just military personnel that develop PTSD. Doctors, nurses, EMTs, cops, car wreck survivors, rape survivors, natural disaster survivors, shooting victims, kids on a playground that got beat up by a mob of other kids. The list goes on and on.

The first thing you need to "KNOW" is that this is a very sensitive subject and it can be hard as fuck for some to talk about. Your situational awareness sucks and therefore Im inclined to think that you are NOT former military.

Make no mistake, I didn't make my post to answer any of YOUR "questions". I posted what I posted to help along a thread that is being read by men and women I respect, of which I know their background.

Do your self a favor and "read more and post less". If you truly are here to learn and not to troll this website, you will be doing yourself a favor by doing so.
 
pardus said:
That is one of the problems of PTSD, who can make that determination?
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That's one of the biggest problems with PTSD, it's kind of the "back pain" of our generation. When I first joined the Army, a lot of people were claiming to have, and being treated for, moderate to severe back pain. Like PTSD, it was a legit affliction that enough people had that it had to be taken seriously, but it was impossible to prove that someone actually had it if they were faking. Same with PTSD. It seems that every time a Soldier gets in trouble, they claim it's PTSD-related. How can you prove or disprove something that exists largely in the mind of the individual who claims to have it? The correct answer, IMO, is that normally you have to err on the side of caution and assume it's true until proven otherwise, which is VERY difficult to do.
 
Marauder06 said:
That's one of the biggest problems with PTSD, it's kind of the "back pain" of our generation. When I first joined the Army, a lot of people were claiming to have, and being treated for, moderate to severe back pain. Like PTSD, it was a legit affliction that enough people had that it had to be taken seriously, but it was impossible to prove that someone actually had it if they were faking. Same with PTSD. It seems that every time a Soldier gets in trouble, they claim it's PTSD-related. How can you prove or disprove something that exists largely in the mind of the individual who claims to have it? The correct answer, IMO, is that normally you have to err on the side of caution and assume it's true until proven otherwise, which is VERY difficult to do.
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Well, I am lucky not to suffer with PTSD but I do with back pain.. I put it down to heavy rucking while I was in an 11B. There is nothing worse than getting called out when you have a legitimate problem by people who think your bluffing .... I can only imagine what a person goes through daily who has PTSD...
 
Irish said:
Well, I am lucky not to suffer with PTSD but I do with back pain.. I put it down to heavy rucking while I was in an 11B. There is nothing worse than getting called out when you have a legitimate problem by people who think your bluffing .... I can only imagine what a person goes through daily who has PTSD...
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I agree completely.
 
Irish said:
Well, I am lucky not to suffer with PTSD but I do with back pain.. I put it down to heavy rucking while I was in an 11B. There is nothing worse than getting called out when you have a legitimate problem by people who think your bluffing .... I can only imagine what a person goes through daily who has PTSD...
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I may have acted in haste, so my apology to the membership.
During the 70's and 80's the VA chased away a lot of veterans from the Viet-Nam war. It was not the people at the hospitals, but the administration. We were made to feel that our claims were bogus. It was not until the mid 80's, that the VA changed it's position and decided to help RVN Vets, but the damage was done. In order for the VA to reach RVN vets, privately operated out reach clinics were open to help vets. There were a number of articles about "trip wire" vets, who choose a secluded life style as a solution to the problems they were dealing with. The change in our society occurred at the end of the Gulf war, it was now cool to be a vet again. A new problem for the RVN vet, wannabes...... Today there is a estimated 13 million wannabe RVN Vets to the 850,000 actual vets.

At the start of the gulf war, the Vets in this country decided that what happened to the RVN Vets was not going to happen to our current serving members. Support our Troops became a common expression. It is bad enough coming home to a insensitive nation, but come home to a hostile nation. As bad as some things are today, they are a lot better than not so long ago. Our current serving are the people who need our support and so does their families. IMHO, if I am overly protective, that is why. I am safe today, not for what the Vets of my generation did, it is what our current members of our Armed forces are doing. It is the least we can do, considering all that they are doing for us. For those why have served, they do not deserve disrespect for their service, injuries and should be provided the best care a nation can provide.
 
HOLLiS said:
I may have acted in haste, so my apology to the membership.
During the 70's and 80's the VA chased away a lot of veterans from the Viet-Nam war. It was not the people at the hospitals, but the administration. We were made to feel that our claims were bogus. It was not until the mid 80's, that the VA changed it's position and decided to help RVN Vets, but the damage was done. In order for the VA to reach RVN vets, privately operated out reach clinics were open to help vets. There were a number of articles about "trip wire" vets, who choose a secluded life style as a solution to the problems they were dealing with. The change in our society occurred at the end of the Gulf war, it was now cool to be a vet again. A new problem for the RVN vet, wannabes...... Today there is a estimated 13 million wannabe RVN Vets to the 850,000 actual vets.

At the start of the gulf war, the Vets in this country decided that what happened to the RVN Vets was not going to happen to our current serving members. Support our Troops became a common expression. It is bad enough coming home to a insensitive nation, but come home to a hostile nation. As bad as some things are today, they are a lot better than not so long ago. Our current serving are the people who need our support and so does their families. IMHO, if I am overly protected, that is why. I am safe today, not for what the Vets of my generation did, it is what our current members of our Armed forces are doing. It is the least we can do, considering all that they are doing for us. For those why have served, they do not deserve disrespect for their service, injuries and should be provided the best care a nation can provide.
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You owe no one an apology Hollis.. Military knows Military.. We just have our own ways to articulate.. :thumbsup:
 
Are we all good now and EliasBR can ask questions? To all who are not an Admin or a Mod and trying to correct someone on the board I refer you here, just report it...If you don't want read it let me sum it up for you. If I see this crap again everyone that decided to add there 2 fucking cents in or is an ass, and I don't care if it is 20 posts to 2000 post you are getting a vacation
 
Polar Bear said:
Are we all good now and EliasBR can ask questions? To all who are not an Admin or a Mod and trying to correct someone on the board I refer you here, just report it...If you don't want read it let me sum it up for you. If I see this crap again everyone that decided to add there 2 fucking cents in or is an ass, and I don't care if it is 20 posts to 2000 post you are getting a vacation
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What he said.


Guys, I know this is a sensitive subject. But I think it's worth having a discussion over, so let's do it like we normally do it here on ShadowSpear- calmly, rationally, with professionalism and mutual respect. I know that this issue affects a number of our members on a deeply personal level. That makes this subject important to me, and that should make it important to you as well. So let's get it back on track.

In my opinion, the questions related to Elias's motivations were asked and answered, and I think he was on the receiving end of a bit more hostility than was necessary. It appears that members have self-corrected on that so I don't think anything else need be said about it. At the same time, Elias, I'm not taking your side either. Sometimes, even if you're 100% "right," it's smart to walk away from something that you're likely to end up on the losing side of. There have been many times in my life where I let something go, because someone was more emotionally vested in a subject than I was, and it wasn't worth the effort of fighting over it. Something to consider.

On one final note, I'm getting really tired of seeing high-interest threads get shut down due to jackassery. Consider this an azimuth check for all involved. Now move out and draw fire. ;)
 
I would say that the occurrence of PTSD is simply severely unreported within the ranks of SOF, pure and simple.

Reasons for that statement?
  • SOF elements are tight knit groups. This has multiple effects, in my eyes. Green's good, Red's Bad
    • SOF Veterans who served honorably as a general rule remain a community/enclave/group
    • SOF Veterans as a community will generally try to get those who have "gone off the reservation" back "on the res" mentally due to the community factor. We generally keep track of our own, and will provide a shoulder, ear, or helping hand without second thought. We all have been to the point where we were the "strong one" on a mission and had to help someone else up from a knee on a movement, and have been the one helped up as well.
    • SOF forces generally are stabilized where they are, unit wise. You can spend years in the same location with the same guys, who all learn about one another through necessity and simple proximity. This gives the means to know when "shit ain't right with XXXX" and not be afraid to check up on their comrade to make sure he's good to go, or help them as needed if they aren't.
    • SOF forces are stabilized where they are for long durations of time. The lasting relationships and dysfunctional "family" that grows within a SOF unit, make a significantly greater probability to cause greater emotional trauma when a casualty occurs. You can drive by a fatal car wreck and say "that sucks" and go on living, but it's a whole different ballgame mentally when it's a member of your family in that car.
    • SOF Forces and Veterans are highly motivated and well trained individuals, surrounded by like individuals, who all strive to be the best at their job. This means that the symptoms, or more appropriately, the easily detected symptoms from civilian-incident-based PTSD, are masked easily within the confines of SOF due to the nature of the work, environments, and situations.
    • Delayed onset due to repressing/ignoring/burying issues that hit home. You don't have time to deal with it now, you have exfil/QRF/the next mission/next mission phase to deal with. If you stay in the zone you function in the zone because a portion of PTSD precursor "flags" are viable, functional survival mechanisms in theater.
Service members who are within the ranks of SOF are hard chargers.
Until it's an issue that cannot be ignored due to it's infringement on their duty performance, things may/can/will be explained away or considered "personality traits" by those either at the same, or higher, levels of leadership.
Everyone generally loves doing what they do within their respective portion of the SOF Community as a whole.

Seeking care for psychological problems while active duty is generally speaking akin to:
  • stopping everything you know and love doing
  • hopping in a mining cart
  • kicking out the wheel chock and doing the Indiana Jones rail ride.
Specifically, you're going to get shot at (in character assassination) by some of the people you thought were friends or brothers in arms.
You have no control at any real point of where you go.
You're about guaranteed the end of the rail line results in the forceful ejection from the military and more importantly, everything you know and love doing.

Military psychological care isn't focused on getting anyone better. It's focused on identification of whatever issues you have, throwing pills at you, and filling out a med board packet. Significant negative contrast when compared to rehabilitation and "job making" for others who are physically injured.


Now, think about why reporting is low even on the outside...

Couple everything stated above with the stigma within the military about "mental weakness", talking yourself into PTSD, PTSD being a cop-out, PTSD = Malingerer, which has been specifically stated in this as well as other threads on this forum...

Now flip that shit around and look at what "official" jobs people who are SOF have... the guys that shoot people in the face are primarily infantrymen or the various services variants thereof... know what jobs that lets you get into easily once you get out? Not many anyway. Bad people need killing but unlike the military, on the civilian side we tend to want to have to convince 12 people they need killing. Still, Law enforcement is a big job field that has a large amount of direct relation to the duties and responsibilities as a SOF veteran, and it's a job some guys like because you're still carrying a gun, rank structure, and fucking up assholes.

PTSD medical diagnosis and discharge? Might as well just take a sharpie and cross that entire job category off your list.

Couple it with everyone thinking PTSD means you're going to go Rambo or flip out at the drop of a dime or some other shit, and you're double fucked.


What that all means as a Veteran, let alone a SOF Veteran, is this:

Cocksuckers are able to be proud of the ball-chin and fly their flag proudly, even in uniform... yet combat vets who get hit with a randomly fused brain housing group IED have to hide in the closet both in and out of the service.

How fucked up is that?
 

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