Report: DoD Investigating Whether Navy SEALs Strangled Green Beret To Death In Mali

[8482farm]

If they were just playing BJJ at 0500 then yes. In the context of BJJ and MMA, "Choke" holds or blood chokes are designed to temporarily disrupt circulation to the brain by squeezing the neck to pinch the jugulars. NOT by cutting off their breathing by disrupting their airway which is strangulation.

 

[Ranger Psych]

My thing is, and having held until someone passed out a couple times, you can tell when they're not a participant anymore.

A choke vs strangle, choke's quicker anyway. You'd be hanging the fuck onto the guy for a good bit longer since they have the oxygenation buffer of their lung capacity, provided they keep control of themselves.

 

[Red Flag 1]

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[policemedic]

Seems off that two highly trained individuals could have potentially applied a choke hold wrong and still fail to revive the Sergeant. Circulation automatically resumes after the hold is released.

If everything goes to plan and assuming no undiagnosed pathology.

 

[8482farm]

A couple of things are at play when you interrupt blood flow to the brain. Blood flows into the brain by two sets of separate carotid arteries, the internals, and the externals; that is 4 arteries. Two other major arteries that supply blood are the vertebral arteries. All of the blood flow enters what is known as the Circle Of Willis. The Circle of Willis distributes blood to the brain. The "Jugulars" that you say get pinched off, do indeed get occluded, but they are veins and drain the head of blood, they do not supply blood to the brain. When you choke someone, there is still blood flow to the brain, so something else is going on as well.

With increased pressure on the external carotid arteries, the pressure skyrockets inside the blood vessels There are Carotid Bodies which monitor beat to beat pressure within the arteries. There is a reflex known as the "Herring Breuer" reflex that interprets this increased pressure as harmful to the brain. In response, the heart rate slows dramatically and other blood vessels in the body dilate in an emergency measure to save the brain from an overpressure event. Someone who is at the fitness level of a Special Forces Soldier probably has a resting pulse rate well below 60, probably ten to twenty beats lower per minute. So you take this already slow heart rate and it gets driven even lower. It is a clinically significant slowing of the heart rate. So there is more going on than a simple reduction of blood flow to the brain, there are severe cardio-vascular results as well. A good part of what happens with these "Blood Chokes" is cardiac and other measures to lower the blood pressure within the body. I do not know if the airway was damaged causing lack of air to the lungs, it is a possibility.

We'll see what the investigation shows, but it is for sure he was murdered and asphyxiation was the call. The brain did not get the blood and oxygen flow it needed to stay alive. You are a Navy Corpsman and when you hand out medical advice or information, it better be dead on accurate. Check your anatomy again regarding the "Jugulars".

ETA. I do hope you are not playing any of these games.

Apologies, I was uncertain about the nature of your initial inquiry. Yes, you are correct, anatomically/physiologically jugular and arterial veins have different purposes within the body and all are affected while under a vascular neck restraint. More specifically, you are also correct in the exact physiological process where the choke is locked, pressure builds in the head, BP drops in the body, vision becomes impaired, and you ultimately lose consciousness. It's nice to know that I have the opportunity to speak more in-depth concerning medical processes here. I will do better in the future with being more specific and accurate. However, I'm not quite sure what games you are referring to.

 

[Marauder06]

This sounds like straight up malfeasance to me. I hope I’m wrong.

 

[pardus]

Apologies, I was uncertain about the nature of your initial inquiry. Yes, you are correct, anatomically/physiologically jugular and arterial veins have different purposes within the body and all are affected while under a vascular neck restraint. More specifically, you are also correct in the exact physiological process where the choke is locked, pressure builds in the head, BP drops in the body, vision becomes impaired, and you ultimately lose consciousness. It's nice to know that I have the opportunity to speak more in-depth concerning medical processes here. I will do better in the future with being more specific and accurate. However, I'm not quite sure what games you are referring to.

How long have you been a Corpsman? What pay grade are you? I'm glad to see that you think an extraordinarily experienced Military MD is "correct".

 

[TLDR20]

Can we all just wait until the investigation is complete?

 

[pardus]

This is what happens when juveille frat boy behavior is allowed in the military, just like the rank punching retardedness. Both of which has killed our brothers in arms.

 

[policemedic]

Can we all just wait until the investigation is complete?

Dude, that’s no fucking fun at all. Who does that?

 

[TLDR20]

Dude, that’s no fucking fun at all. Who does that?

Yeah it’s less fun. But this dude was a brother. And unless we know what happened, let’s not get caught up in the semantics of MMA training.

I have personal feelings on this, and I will keep them that way, until the investigation is over at least.

 

[policemedic]

Yeah it’s less fun. But this dude was a brother. And unless we know what happened, let’s not get caught up in the semantics of MMA training.

I have personal feelings on this, and I will keep them that way, until the investigation is over at least.

I get it. My sarcasm may have gotten the better of me (that never happens...).

 

[8482farm]

How long have you been a Corpsman? What pay grade are you? I'm glad to see that you think an extraordinarily experienced Military MD is "correct". View attachment 20162

I've been a Corpsman for over five years. Sorry if I conveyed the wrong tone. But I was just admitting @Red Flag 1 was right and I was wrong.

 

[pardus]

I've been a Corpsman for over five years. Sorry if I conveyed the wrong tone. But I was just admitting @Red Flag 1 was right and I was wrong.

"Over 5 years?" Your tone is not the issue. Your misdiagnosis is!
Go and do some study on your professional field.

 

[amlove21]

So. Here’s my take.

We don’t wait for for an investigation to be 100% done on the this site before discussion just because the topic might be sensitive. We have a President trump page with 114 pages and a Hillary Clinton emails thread with more with no closed investigation. Those are sensitive and have done more damage than good to our community than good, IMO. Yet every day they get more posts.

With that said- no matter what happened, malicious, incidental, or somewhere in between- this is a tragedy. We (the SOF community) lost a Brother in the worst possible way- not in combat. Respect that fact.

We won’t hide from it here because we have hard conversations here. Members discuss new issues and sometimes discuss issues before all the facts are laid out as truth- but we do it respectfully and as equals, in line with our updated forum business rules.

Only warning folks. Heed it.

 

[8482farm]

"Over 5 years?" Your tone is not the issue. Your misdiagnosis is!
Go and do some study on your professional field.

How did I misdiagnose when there hasn't been an official diagnoses? I omitted certain physiological processes that are relevant and may have been a contributor to the cause of death and did not include carotids which are also being affected during vascular neck constraints. However, we both came to the conclusion that the victim may have asphyxiated/been strangled. That may be why the other two involved were not able to(if they actually tried) revive him since it is more difficult to get someone breathing again than to promote circulation.

My take is that, it would be extremely unlikely that the two SEALs would have accidentally killed the Green Beret due to a BJJ/MMA style blood choke. The reason I keep referencing BJJ/MMA is because the two in question should have no other reason to have the Green Beret in a choke hold unless they were in an actual altercation. These techniques are demonstrated on all types of military/law enforcement personnel constantly with minimal results in death or brain damage. It only takes seconds to put someone out and minutes for them to come to.

However, since they were unable to revive the Green Beret through the means of BLS leads me to believe he was strangled instead of blood choked. This would allude to murder because it takes more time and effort to strangle someone than to blood choke them and it would be harder to revive them. Meaning, there has to be motive/effort behind the act. I do hope it was an accident though because this situation is highly demoralizing and may lead to something bigger if they had to kill one of our own to cover something up.

As for my profession, the bulk of my years were spent in the pharmacy. After entering a A-school to C-school pipeline for pharmacy, I went straight to the hospital. Most of my time was spent compounding medication than face-to-face patient care. Also, working with staff that are over 50% civilian and have no prior military experience, the stigma of "just a Corpsman" was very high. I had little opportunity to upkeep my skills as a Corpsman due to my duties as a Pharmacy Technician. I had to take time out of my 12 hour work schedule just to volunteer with nurses in the ICU to try and learn as much as I could while juggling school, PT, and my collateral duties . So yes, there is no way I would be as knowledgeable as a Military MD with years more experience than I. He checked me and I admitted to my mistakes. I am currently half way through my bachelors degree in Medical Humanities at my university and plan on attending USUHS in the future after serving some more enlisted time. I apologize for not providing complete and accurate information and will do better in the future when engaging in conversation concerning my profession.

 

[AWP]

I know some probably want to discuss an MMA angle and the physiology involved, but that isn't happening; So let's end those posts.

 

[Docboats]

I do not know if the airway was damaged causing lack of air to the lungs, it is a possibility.

The NYT article used the word strangle over choke on more than one occasion.
I think we can all agree, unless something physiologically went weird here, this soldier should have been able to wake up from a standard blood choke. Hell, I'm fairly certain he'd been choked out before in combatives training.
I'm listening for horses here, not zebras... a crushing injury to Staff Sgt. Melgar's airway seems the most likely cause of death from what little information I have. IF that is what happened, it would most likely be out of these 2 SEALs wheelhouse to throw in a cric or trach to save him, which would account for their failed revival attempts.

Foul play, or rough play gone wrong... this sucks.
RIP Staff Sgt. Logan J. Melgar

 

[AWP]

I know some probably want to discuss an MMA angle and the physiology involved, but that isn't happening; So let's end those posts.

The NYT article used the word strangle over choke on more than one occasion.
I think we can all agree, unless something physiologically went weird here, this soldier should have been able to wake up from a standard blood choke. Hell, I'm fairly certain he'd been choked out before in combatives training.
I'm listening for horses here, not zebras... a crushing injury to Staff Sgt. Melgar's airway seems the most likely cause of death from what little information I have. IF that is what happened, it would most likely be out of these 2 SEALs wheelhouse to throw in a cric or trach to save him, which would account for their failed revival attempts.

Foul play, or rough play gone wrong... this sucks.
RIP Staff Sgt. Logan J. Melgar

 

[Gunz]

A couple of things are at play when you interrupt blood flow to the brain. Blood flows into the brain by two sets of separate carotid arteries, the internals, and the externals; that is 4 arteries. Two other major arteries that supply blood are the vertebral arteries. All of the blood flow enters what is known as the Circle Of Willis. The Circle of Willis distributes blood to the brain. The "Jugulars" that you say get pinched off, do indeed get occluded, but they are veins and drain the head of blood, they do not supply blood to the brain. When you choke someone, there is still blood flow to the brain, so something else is going on as well.

With increased pressure on the external carotid arteries, the pressure skyrockets inside the blood vessels There are Carotid Bodies which monitor beat to beat pressure within the arteries. There is a reflex known as the "Herring Breuer" reflex that interprets this increased pressure as harmful to the brain. In response, the heart rate slows dramatically and other blood vessels in the body dilate in an emergency measure to save the brain from an overpressure event. Someone who is at the fitness level of a Special Forces Soldier probably has a resting pulse rate well below 60, probably ten to twenty beats lower per minute. So you take this already slow heart rate and it gets driven even lower. It is a clinically significant slowing of the heart rate. So there is more going on than a simple reduction of blood flow to the brain, there are severe cardio-vascular results as well. A good part of what happens with these "Blood Chokes" is cardiac and other measures to lower the blood pressure within the body. I do not know if the airway was damaged causing lack of air to the lungs, it is a possibility.

We'll see what the investigation shows, but it is for sure he was murdered and asphyxiation was the call. The brain did not get the blood and oxygen flow it needed to stay alive. You are a Navy Corpsman and when you hand out medical advice or information, it better be dead on accurate. Check your anatomy again regarding the "Jugulars".

ETA. I do hope you are not playing any of these games.

One of the reasons I love this website.