Retention and Recruitment Crisis

[Cookie_]

What percentage of ROTC go guard/reserve and not AD?

Less than 50%. I wanna say it's about a 60/40 split. There are a few scholarships that are specific to those services, so that helps draw in a ton of people.

The concept of more than one OCS--NG and for AD--is just weird to me. I have heard a guard guy say it was easy, and another it was hard. I imagine the truth is in the middle.

Gotta remember with the Guard that there are ~50 state OCS programs. One state's might be nothing but hazing for 18 months, another's is just drinking beer, and another's is actually something like OCS.

We technically have a third option between State and Federal OCS, and that's the "accelerated" OCS. It crams the 12 weeks of Fed OCS into an 8 week suckfest in SD or AL.

 

[AWP]

The concept of more than one OCS--NG and for AD--is just weird to me. I have heard a guard guy say it was easy, and another it was hard. I imagine the truth is in the middle.

I guess I could say the obvious of "it depends." If you think of it as a standard Guard drill schedule instead of the straight 90 or whatever days now on AD then it is probably easy. As @Cookie_ posted above each state runs their own program...sort of. Drawing on a 20 year old memory:

The Guard is broken into regions for training purposes with each sporting its own regional training institute. Those in turn host a lot of common courses like your NCO schools, some MOS training, portions of OCS, etc. Guard OCS is 18-ish 9states vary) months of drills and 2 week periods. For me we drilled twice, went to the RTI for 2 weeks, drilled for a year, Benning for 2 weeks with AD instructors watching us, 2 more drill periods and commissioned. NC started in Feb. and while FL was retarded NC brought the stupid to higher levels.

An acquaintance in WI (he might have gone to MN's course, I need to check) mirrored my experience of smoke sessions and hazing coupled with the bare minimum of training to satisfy the Federal requirements. I don't whine when I say having, it was buckets of stupid with no purpose other than to make us quit; instructors from classes prior to ours told me that point blank. There's no selection or assessment process for a number of Guard OCS programs, it is smoke the hell out of you to see if you'll quit.

We technically have a third option between State and Federal OCS, and that's the "accelerated" OCS. It crams the 12 weeks of Fed OCS into an 8 week suckfest in SD or AL.

It was SD 20 years ago, maybe still is or did they start another one?

Of Region 6 (FL, the Carolinas, GA, PR, and the VI), I think GA or PR were the "easiest" just based on their stories...assuming we could find someone from PR who spoke English, but that's another story. NC was probably the worst with FL a close second for the aforementioned reasons.

Guard OCS is political and stupid.

 

[Viper1]

Hey brother, a couple of recruiting-related questions for you, I'm putting it hear instead of picking up the phone to call you direct so that the response can benefit the whole site and not just me.

1) Direct commission/OCS: I know a high-achieving individual who just graduated from a top US school. He is contemplating joining the service, and has been working towards it for a long time. AFAIK he meets all the requirements. What would you recommend as the path for him to become an officer? I'm assuming enlisting with an OCS contract? Also, how much influence will he have over branch choice; can he enlist for a specific branch, or does everyone compete for branches in OCS? Is direct commissioning as say an intel officer an option? Last thing, do you think you might be willing to do a short call with this individual to discuss potentail options with him, or maybe refer him to someone else? He's looking to do Guard or Reserves.

2) ROTC in grad school. Do you know anything about that, or should I reach out to maybe a PMS?

@Viper1

Sir (Doctor now) great Questions!
1) I interviewed 7 applicants for OCS. It’s a tough board but the Army approves a bunch (I’ll get you a number, four times a year.) Especially for Army Reserve it is an excellent pathway. I am absolutely available to do a call with him and we can even help him process his application! The pathway is this: paperboard, interview, Army board, selection, basic training, OCS. His rankings at OCS will determine his future branch.

2) Yes an applicant can do ROTC in grad school. They can apply with the PMS and agree to go to Knox for advanced camp before commissioning but it is a lesser known option.

 

[Viper1]

Unless something changed, once you're selected for OCS you go through Basic Training (but not AIT) before reporting to OCS. If you're already in the Army and accepted for OCS you do not repeat Basic.

ETA: It looks like that's still true. Scroll to the FAQ at the bottom.
Officer Candidate School

This is correct

 

[ThunderHorse]

I've only seen it happen once, but if you fail out of the ROTC program you get converted to E4 and serve out the rest of your contract.

I never saw this with the SMP folks we have and since VMI is a guaranteed Active Duty commissioning source, we had partner schools but I don't think those guys got the same benefit (at least I hope they didn't). We had more than a few SMP folks hit active duty. Maybe those folks never failed.

They say you're supposed to serve out a contract as enlisted if you fail to commission, but I had a roommate that somehow failed to commission after passing LDAC. Honestly there were very few VMI folks that failed to commission, this idiot 10 credit ruled his last semester and then somehow failed to pass his commissioning APFT. Mind, he was in better "shape" than me at the time (I was still there as a Super Senior woooo) and he somehow did less situps, pushups, and failed the two mile run. Let's get real. WIth the amount of running you do at VMI and in the Army in general. 15:54 is really a low bar. There were only a few times I was ever close to the number...one of those times it was at BOLC and it had to have been 25 degrees because everyone ran in full IPFU.

Anyways, he didn't enlist and I have no idea if he had to pay back his three year scholarship.

 

[AWP]

They say you're supposed to serve out a contract as enlisted if you fail to commission,

You brought up a great point and question for @Viper1:

If you enlist for OCS and then drop from OCS, are you discharged or does the Army send you to AIT? I'd think "discharge" is the answer, but Army gonna' Army...

 

[Totentanz]

You brought up a great point and question for @Viper1:

If you enlist for OCS and then drop from OCS, are you discharged or does the Army send you to AIT? I'd think "discharge" is the answer, but Army gonna' Army...

I’ll let @Viper1 speak to current policy but back in the day (mid-GWOT) it was “pick an AIT from a list (needs of the Army)”. It wasn’t common, but there were a small handful of people doing that at various times during my time there.

FWIW it’s a pedantic point, but my contract had OCS as my AIT. Failing out of it was very similar (if not identical in policy) to failing out of another AIT school.

 

[Viper1]

You brought up a great point and question for @Viper1:

If you enlist for OCS and then drop from OCS, are you discharged or does the Army send you to AIT? I'd think "discharge" is the answer, but Army gonna' Army...

Current policy is if you fail for academic reasons you are offered an enlistment option. If you get hurt you can recycle. If you are a failure to adapt or moral /ethical you are discharged.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Here’s a recruiter with zero fucks remaining.

 

[AWP]

"I was almost a Marine."
(someone Googles your name)
"I, uh, uh, I mean, you don't know how hard it was and I had a broken leg and this heart condition they didn't notice and my recruiter fucked me..."

 

[Marauder06]

Here’s a recruiter with zero fucks remaining.

View attachment 48302

I think that's kind of shitty. I understand the recruiter's frustration, but if someone's a quitter, isn't it better to figure that out before they join, before they get free medical benefits for life and get to claim veteran status? Let it go, sgt.alarcon.

 

[Devildoc]

I remember the greatest Marine recruiting pitch I ever heard. I was in high school, can't recall if I was a junior or senior, we had an assembly in the auditorium for people who were interested int he military, all the recruiters were there to make their care and answer questions.

The army was like, "join the army, learn a skill, get money for college, travel."

The air force was like, "join the air force, learn a skill, get money for college, travel."

Pretty much same for the navy.

The Marine recruiter had a pair of boots in his hands, walks to the stage, puts them down front and center and says, "if you think you are man or woman enough to fill those boots, come see me", turns and walks off. That was it. Afterward the had the biggest crowds at his booth.

@Viper1 your team must be doing something right, though...when my son and I were at the airborne and special operations museum on Saturday they did a mass swearing in of 65 new army recruits. Always a moving ceremony.

 

[Cookie_]

I think that's kind of shitty. I understand the recruiter's frustration, but if someone's a quitter, isn't it better to figure that out before they join, before they get free medical benefits for life and get to claim veteran status? Let it go, sgt.alarcon.

I think Sgt Alacorn has been watching too many Andrew Tate videos. The DEP doesn't "get rid of the weak", it's overwhelming full of 17 y/o high schoolers, I.E. the exact type of people to find out they've got other opportunities.

At least blur the kid's face out.

The Marine recruiter had a pair of boots in his hands, walks to the stage, puts them down front and center and says, "if you think you are man or woman enough to fill those boots, come see me", turns and walks off. That was it. Afterward the had the biggest crowds at his booth.

I feel like the recruiter here was trying to do something similar. Something about posting the kids face and calling him a weak quitter doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I gotta think… Someone at HCMC is going to catch wind of this and “strongly suggest” to the good Sergeant that this is not how we operate.

 

[Devildoc]

I feel like the recruiter here was trying to do something similar. Something about posting the kids face and calling him a weak quitter doesn't sit right with me.

I didn't see the video so I don't have an opinion.

That said, nothing speaks to the hypocrisy of what they are trying to do better than publicly calling out a kid and calling him a quitter when you want people to join.

After I graduated college I knew I wanted to join the military, I didn't know what branch or in what capacity other than guard or reserve (at the time I was living with my mom who had health issues). I went to the Marine recruiter and they said before they'd talk with me I needed to lose a few pounds. Fair enough. One weekend I attended one of their little poolee PT events and some private fresh from boot started yelling at my like he was a DI. I told him to pound sand. I told the recruiter I was *this* close to joining (USMCR as a then-RTO, I don't know what they call them now) but their little motivations tactics for potential recruits flopped.

Glad I did; I found my route after paramedic school.

 

[Marauder06]

I didn't see the video so I don't have an opinion.

That said, nothing speaks to the hypocrisy of what they are trying to do better than publicly calling out a kid and calling him a quitter when you want people to join.

After I graduated college I knew I wanted to join the military, I didn't know what branch or in what capacity other than guard or reserve (at the time I was living with my mom who had health issues). I went to the Marine recruiter and they said before they'd talk with me I needed to lose a few pounds. Fair enough. One weekend I attended one of their little poolee PT events and some private fresh from boot started yelling at my like he was a DI. I told him to pound sand. I told the recruiter I was *this* close to joining (USMCR as a then-RTO, I don't know what they call them now) but their little motivations tactics for potential recruits flopped.

Glad I did; I found my route after paramedic school.

Yep. Good people have options. If you don't agressively go after them to recruit, or if you give off bad vibes, it's going to turn a lot of prospects off.

I think if I was on the fence about joining the Marines or not and saw this, I would reconsider joining. "What if it ends up not working out and my recruiter puts me on worldwide blast? Better to not even go down that road."

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Here’s a recruiter with zero fucks remaining.

View attachment 48302

This took about as long as I thought it would…

Marines investigating social media post that appears to mock potential recruit

 

[digrar]

Task and Purpose didn't post the pic, maybe we shouldn't either?

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Task and Purpose didn't post the pic, maybe we shouldn't either?

Fair. I edited my O.P.

 

[Viper1]

I didn't see the video so I don't have an opinion.

That said, nothing speaks to the hypocrisy of what they are trying to do better than publicly calling out a kid and calling him a quitter when you want people to join.

After I graduated college I knew I wanted to join the military, I didn't know what branch or in what capacity other than guard or reserve (at the time I was living with my mom who had health issues). I went to the Marine recruiter and they said before they'd talk with me I needed to lose a few pounds. Fair enough. One weekend I attended one of their little poolee PT events and some private fresh from boot started yelling at my like he was a DI. I told him to pound sand. I told the recruiter I was *this* close to joining (USMCR as a then-RTO, I don't know what they call them now) but their little motivations tactics for potential recruits flopped.

Glad I did; I found my route after paramedic school.

I remember the greatest Marine recruiting pitch I ever heard. I was in high school, can't recall if I was a junior or senior, we had an assembly in the auditorium for people who were interested int he military, all the recruiters were there to make their care and answer questions.

The army was like, "join the army, learn a skill, get money for college, travel."

The air force was like, "join the air force, learn a skill, get money for college, travel."

Pretty much same for the navy.

The Marine recruiter had a pair of boots in his hands, walks to the stage, puts them down front and center and says, "if you think you are man or woman enough to fill those boots, come see me", turns and walks off. That was it. Afterward the had the biggest crowds at his booth.

@Viper1 your team must be doing something right, though...when my son and I were at the airborne and special operations museum on Saturday they did a mass swearing in of 65 new army recruits. Always a moving ceremony.

Thanks for that! The mass swear ins are one of the best parts of the job.