SF Q course question....calling all SF guys...

[Devildoc]

I know the Q course evolves over time. I think it's evolved, changed, three or four times since I have started working with them 3 yeas ago. What part goes where, in what order, etc.

I was watching the Larry Vickers' podcast on Shawn Ryan and he talked about the old 3-phase course, and no language, which tracks with an old friend of mine who was a SF baby in the course in...83 I think.

For history preservation purposes, what was the course like when you went through?

 

[Steve1839]

For history preservation purposes, what was the course like when you went through?

I went through in 1976...Phase I was land nav intense, the last two weeks (Phase I was four weeks long) running solo lanes in the Uwharrie National Forest at night...Phase II Weapons was divided into a light portion, 4 weeks and a heavy portion, also 4 weeks...lots of range time, lots of mechanical training...Phase III was also 4 weeks, the first half was SF specific classroom stuff and the last half was an FTX...altogether, 16 weeks for Commo, Demo and Weapons...the medics has another 6-8 months or so of 300F1, clinical OJT and Advanced Medical Lab...language was to be done at the group. We had a SERE orientation in Phase I and another in Phase III.

 

[Devildoc]

I went through in 1976...Phase I was land nav intense, the last two weeks (Phase I was four weeks long) running solo lanes in the Uwharrie National Forest at night...Phase II Weapons was divided into a light portion, 4 weeks and a heavy portion, also 4 weeks...lots of range time, lots of mechanical training...Phase III was also 4 weeks, the first half was SF specific classroom stuff and the last half was an FTX...altogether, 16 weeks for Commo, Demo and Weapons...the medics has another 6-8 months or so of 300F1, clinical OJT and Advanced Medical Lab...language was to be done at the group. We had a SERE orientation in Phase I and another in Phase III.

That's awesome, thanks. 1976, what was the post-Vietnam vibe? Was there one?

 

[Marauder06]

I went through in 1976...Phase I was land nav intense, the last two weeks (Phase I was four weeks long) running solo lanes in the Uwharrie National Forest at night...Phase II Weapons was divided into a light portion, 4 weeks and a heavy portion, also 4 weeks...lots of range time, lots of mechanical training...Phase III was also 4 weeks, the first half was SF specific classroom stuff and the last half was an FTX...altogether, 16 weeks for Commo, Demo and Weapons...the medics has another 6-8 months or so of 300F1, clinical OJT and Advanced Medical Lab...language was to be done at the group. We had a SERE orientation in Phase I and another in Phase III.

That's around the time my dad went through. I think that was well before SF was its own branch?

 

[Devildoc]

That's around the time my dad went through. I think that was well before SF was its own branch?

I had a neighbor growing up who was a history teacher at the high school, retired army, almost all of it SF, with several tours in Vietnam. When my dad died he became a mentor, great guy.

Anyhoo, he really wanted me to join the army and go SF. His son, a year or two younger and a friend of mine, really didn't have an interest. So in the early to mid 80s he took me to Bragg multiple times for all sorts of what I think we're recruiting visits lol.

I bring this up only in context that he was very happy and excited when SF became a branch, so in my deeply depleted and plebian state of mind I want to say that was mid-80s?

 

[Cookie_]

I bring this up only in context that he was very happy and excited when SF became a branch, so in my deeply depleted and plebian state of mind I want to say that was mid-80s?

You're basically spot on. Quick search says it became a branch in '87.

 

[Gunz]

I have two close friends who were Vietnam veteran SF. One was a three-tour senior NCO who managed to get a Purple Heart in each tour. The other was a PFC Green Beret who was blown up and sent home after two months in country.

I was surprised they had young junior enlisteds back then. Nowadays don't you have to be at least an E-4 or E-5 before you can go to SFAS?

 

[Devildoc]

I have two close friends who were Vietnam veteran SF. One was a three-tour senior NCO who managed to get a Purple Heart in each tour. The other was a PFC Green Beret who was blown up and sent home after two months in country.

I was surprised they had young junior enlisteds back then. Nowadays don't you have to be at least an E-4 or E-5 before you can go to SFAS?

I had a cousin who I did not know well who was in Vietnam, first with 9th ID, then with SF. There was a pic once of him in (SF) uniform as a spec 5.

 

[Cookie_]

I was surprised they had young junior enlisteds back then. Nowadays don't you have to be at least an E-4 or E-5 before you can go to SFAS?

You can come in as a PVT with an 18x contract. I know they will get E5 after SFAS before going to a team, but I can't remember when in the pipeline that occurs.

Only ever seen less than a handful under E6.

 

[Steve1839]

That's around the time my dad went through. I think that was well before SF was its own branch?

Specialty Code 18 came about in 1984, as I recall. The branch stood up in April 1987.

 

[Steve1839]

That's awesome, thanks. 1976, what was the post-Vietnam vibe? Was there one?

In a sense, I think the grown-ups wanted to focus more on unconvential warfare and put aside foreign internal development...but the cadre were all Vietnam vets and many were still wedded to their ways. One of the instructors was talking about breaking contact, doing what was called an Australian peel, basically firing a magazine, dropping it and reloading while withdrawing. One of the more senior instructors reminded us that in a UW environment, magazines might become hard to come by, so it might be advisable to hang onto one after emptying it...I also attended the Reserve Component Phase II for Engineers...gone was the emphasis in Theater of Operations construction and was replaced with a strong emphasis in mine warfare, demolitions, booby traps and other stuff, so I guess in that regard, there was a post-Vietnam vibe, if I understood the question.

 

[TLDR20]

I posted this in another thread but it is similar.

So I went through starting almost 20 years ago…. WTaF?

When I went through SOPC for 18X’s was at Ft.Bragg in the now mostly demolished “old division” area. SOPC was a man maker of sorts, brutal beatings, it was the true selection event. I went through an interesting SFAS class as it was the first July SFAS they had run in almost a decade, as multiple people had died previously. They modeled it after the Aussie SAS selection, because there are similar heat variables at play. There were multiple Aussie SAS guys at our selection observing. We did almost a full reverse cycle selection, with mostly every event happening at night or early morning. It was cool. My class was also exclusively CONUS based 11 series which is obviously different. They wanted people who more accustomed to the climate and heat. We were told most of this at the end. Obviously they didn’t tell us anything other than “check the white board” during the class. I do believe that having an all infantry selection was good, and to stand out you had to be even better. Our class was also very small by SFAS standards.

I was one of the last classes to go through SOPC 2, which was basically like Pre-Ranger. Lots of smokings and fire hose levels off SUT. I’m sad that the trail of tears isn’t still a thing, that was a true ball buster. SOPC 2 doesn’t exist in any form any longer.

Here is where things got weird. There was an intensive focus or refocus on language so I attended a language “blitz” of some amount of weeks, I don’t recall, then went to SUT and SERE, then came back and did more language school. Then I went of to medic land for 18 months to complete a 12 month course;). By the time I returned they had shifted language school to before SUT. So now us MOS qualified guys were in language school with a bunch of guys who just showed up to Bragg. I did 4(?) months of language school and then Sage.

Add in some interesting timestamps. I ate at the old McKall chow hall until I came back for Robin Sage. We were in tents for SFAS and SUT, due to construction of new barracks during that phase. Million Dollar shitter was there in all its glory. We stayed in the old Selection huts for parts of SOPC and then in SERE, but they were demolished.

I know it isn’t ancient history but it is much different than now.

 

[Devildoc]

@TLDR20 , thanks for that, very informative.

When did A&S come about? X-ray program? It's my understanding that the street to SF programs (SF baby, X-ray, etc) have been intermittent and only since the 80s.

 

[Steve1839]

@TLDR20 , thanks for that, very informative.

When did A&S come about? X-ray program? It's my understanding that the street to SF programs (SF baby, X-ray, etc) have been intermittent and only since the 80s.

We had some guys that were SF babies in my class...their graduation rate was abysmal. I've known several guys who were before me who had never served in conventional units, so the program, if there is such a thing, has been around. I do believe there have been times when SF was not an enlistment option, however.

 

[TLDR20]

@TLDR20 , thanks for that, very informative.

When did A&S come about? X-ray program? It's my understanding that the street to SF programs (SF baby, X-ray, etc) have been intermittent and only since the 80s.

The X-Ray program in its most current iteration started in 2002 or 2003. There have been minor changes, but it remains a very good recruitment tool for the Army and particular the infantry. When I joined the process was quite strenuous if you were under 20. I had to do multiple Physical tests, interview with the recruiting BN commander, as well as attend mandatory workouts. Nowadays I think they are again allowing 18 year olds but we will see if that sticks. It was age 20 and above from 2006-2024

 

[SpongeBob*24]

I know the Q course evolves over time. I think it's evolved, changed, three or four times since I have started working with them 3 yeas ago. What part goes where, in what order, etc.

@Devildoc I knew ALOT of guys that went from 1998 to 2002 before the SF Baby program came back. I can plug some holes for you in your timeline, if you would alow. PM if you want juicy deets! This link sums up key changes in that time frame.

https://www.proquest.com/docview/199355395?sourcetype=Trade Journals

Nowadays you can't sit down with 3 Green Berets that have a similar story on their journey. It's ever changing and I hope it's for the GOOD!

#science

 

[AWP]

SF babies on AD were a thing back in the 60's. The Guard has had a REP-63 program since some time in the 80's, if not earlier. I do not know if there was a break in the former at any time, but I'm almost positive the Guard REP-63 program never stopped.

Specialty Code 18 came about in 1984, as I recall. The branch stood up in April 1987.

My first company commander completed the 18A course in 1984 and it was referred to as such on his all of his paperwork. The "S" identifier was gone by then, later moving over to us support guys at some point between then and the earliest pre-93 MTOE I recall seeing. All of my reading, nerding out, and talking to guys from the 80's, and I can't recall a year earlier than '84.

 

[Devildoc]

SF babies on AD were a thing back in the 60's. The Guard has had a REP-63 program since some time in the 80's, if not earlier. I do not know if there was a break in the former at any time, but I'm almost positive the Guard REP-63 program never stopped.

I know I may be parsing words or semantics, I don't think in Vietnam it was an identified thing, as my understanding that recruits were identified and targeted and invited to attend the Q. I think I read that in one of the MACV-SOG books.

 

[Devildoc]

@Devildoc I knew ALOT of guys that went from 1998 to 2002 before the SF Baby program came back. I can plug some holes for you in your timeline, if you would alow. PM if you want juicy deets! This link sums up key changes in that time frame.

https://www.proquest.com/docview/199355395?sourcetype=Trade Journals

Nowadays you can't sit down with 3 Green Berets that have a similar story on their journey. It's ever changing and I hope it's for the GOOD!

#science

Thanks for that paper. That's interesting. I find it interesting how often they change the order of phases of the Q, and curious as to the rationale.

So far as I know SF is the only pipeline that changes as much as it does.

 

[AWP]

I know I may be parsing words or semantics, I don't think in Vietnam it was an identified thing, as my understanding that recruits were identified and targeted and invited to attend the Q. I think I read that in one of the MACV-SOG books.

I don't know. I know a number of podcasts with MACV-SOG guys stated they went from the street to Training Group. I know some said they enlisted for SF and others said they were able to volunteer in Basic or jump school. Were the former recruited like the latter group? I don't know however a LOT of them recall showing up to the SF Training Group as privates without a single day in Big Army.