SF Q course question....calling all SF guys...

[Steve1839]

All of my reading, nerding out, and talking to guys from the 80's, and I can't recall a year earlier than '84.

My recollection is that the 18 series was introduced to the enlisted side first, although it must have been in '84, as it didn't happen when I was a detachment commander in '83. September is when I got designated as an 18A...officers didn't have an S suffix, but rather 5G, so as an infantry officer I was an 11B005G. Actually, my duty MOS as a lieutenant was 48E005G, Unconventional Warfare Officer. As they were developing the 18 Specialty Code, that changed. The Foreign Area Officer types didn't like being saddled with SF types.

 

[Machete69]

I know the Q course evolves over time. I think it's evolved, changed, three or four times since I have started working with them 3 yeas ago. What part goes where, in what order, etc.

I was watching the Larry Vickers' podcast on Shawn Ryan and he talked about the old 3-phase course, and no language, which tracks with an old friend of mine who was a SF baby in the course in...83 I think.

For history preservation purposes, what was the course like when you went through?

I went through in 2019. I was a prior service Marine who signed on an 18x Ray contract.

Show up , PT test, standby for PRE-Selection (SOPC/SFPC).

Wait for SFAS date

(Selected) standby for ARSOF BLC slot ( non-x rays go back to their units and wait for orders to start the Q course)

Wait for SFOC (6 weeks) this is when you’re given your actual field team that you stay with until graduation. Field team meaning the same cadre.

MOS, 10 weeks

SERE

TACskills, 10 weeks.

receive beret, wait for language. The end.

 

[The Quartermaster]

You can come in as a PVT with an 18x contract. I know they will get E5 after SFAS before going to a team, but I can't remember when in the pipeline that occurs.

Only ever seen less than a handful under E6.

We had an PFC with us in our group at PLDC in Graf that was sent there after passing and coming back to PCS to wherever SF trainees go to, and got a slot at the last minute. The kid was more mature and more motivated than some of our E-5 type SGT's in our small group that made cutoff before being sent to PLDC.

 

[Viper1]

I know the Q course evolves over time. I think it's evolved, changed, three or four times since I have started working with them 3 yeas ago. What part goes where, in what order, etc.

I was watching the Larry Vickers' podcast on Shawn Ryan and he talked about the old 3-phase course, and no language, which tracks with an old friend of mine who was a SF baby in the course in...83 I think.

For history preservation purposes, what was the course like when you went through?

Selection was 14 days so they could add a couple more SFAS start dates. That was a June 2008.

When I got done with a deployment, and Infantry CCC, Q course began in January 2010. It was four months of language, six weeks of SUT, three weeks of SERE (and if you were in SERE you did three weeks of MOS phase prep), four months of MOS phase, and five weeks of Robin Sage. For officers they tacked on a 3 week detachment leader course at the end, one week spent in DC meeting other government agencies.

I graduated in Feb 2011 and reported to 3rd group that April.

 

[TLDR20]

Selection was 14 days so they could add a couple more SFAS start dates. I was first summer class (in a long time). That was a June 2008.

When I got done with a deployment, and Infantry CCC, Q course began in January 2010. It was four months of language, six weeks of SUT, three weeks of SERE (and if you were in SERE you did three weeks of MOS phase prep), four months of MOS phase, and five weeks of Robin Sage. For officers they tacked on a 3 week detachment leader course at the end, one week spent in DC meeting other government agencies.

I graduated in Feb 2011 and reported to 3rd group that April.

I was summer July 2006.

 

[Viper1]

Ah Nice! Will edit my post

 

[x SF med]

Started with class 12-83, graduated with class1-84, as an 11B 'SF Baby'
Pre-Phase - undetermined time frame, think SFAS, SUT, SOPC, and RIP rolled into one thing, we had a guy who stuck it out for 13 months before making it to Mackall, I was selected in a month.
Phase 1 - OIC, Maj Robert L Howard, Land Nav, Basic skills, team tactics, Survival. Note on Survival, Maj Nick Rowe was setting the POI for SERE, so if you missed a task in survival, you got sent to the 'compound' for some extra love and care from 'Uncle Nick', think SERE C HR on steroids, with the only big rules, no stitches, no broken bones.
Phase 2 - Weapons - mixed light and heavy, advanced tactics
Phase 3 - Robin Sage - Uwharrie Nat'l Forest/Pisgah Nat'l Forest

Language - at Group (I was lucky, I had tested out at 1+/1+ French and 2/2 German), was offered Asian, Cyrillic, or Middle Eastern Language of my choice- stupid me said no.

Special training at Group- NBC Defense (Now CBRN), and 'Heavy Ruck/Glowing Ruck' course

Selected to reclass to 18D- OIC then CPT Warner 'Rocky' Farr.. 52 weeks Bragg/Sam/Bragg

Second class to be tabbed at graduation, went from "S" identifier to 18 Series in 1985

 

[Devildoc]

Started with class 12-83, graduated with class1-84, as an 11B 'SF Baby'
Pre-Phase - undetermined time frame, think SFAS, SUT, SOPC, and RIP rolled into one thing, we had a guy who stuck it out for 13 months before making it to Mackall, I was selected in a month.
Phase 1 - OIC, Maj Robert L Howard, Land Nav, Basic skills, team tactics, Survival. Note on Survival, Maj Nick Rowe was setting the POI for SERE, so if you missed a task in survival, you got sent to the 'compound' for some extra love and care from 'Uncle Nick', think SERE C HR on steroids, with the only big rules, no stitches, no broken bones.
Phase 2 - Weapons - mixed light and heavy, advanced tactics
Phase 3 - Robin Sage - Uwharrie Nat'l Forest/Pisgah Nat'l Forest

Language - at Group (I was lucky, I had tested out at 1+/1+ French and 2/2 German), was offered Asian, Cyrillic, or Middle Eastern Language of my choice- stupid me said no.

Special training at Group- NBC Defense (Now CBRN), and 'Heavy Ruck/Glowing Ruck' course

Selected to reclass to 18D- OIC then CPT Warner 'Rocky' Farr.. 52 weeks Bragg/Sam/Bragg

Second class to be tabbed at graduation, went from "S" identifier to 18 Series in 1985

Thanks.

That timeframe fits when a friend of mine went through (also 18D).

RE: pre-phase, was there a nominal timeframe, such as N% were selected in a month? The history of these things has always interested me.

My father retired from the Marines, most of it in intel. During one of tours in VN he went on what was described as a pretty low-risk patrol with a recon unit. Afterward he was told if he went to jump and dive school he would be a recon Marine (he did neither, just not his jam, he stayed intel). Just an example of why these things have fascinated me, how they've changed over the years.

 

[x SF med]

Classes usually started with 150-200 students, with the expectation of 50-70% attrition. No set time in pre-phase.

 

[AWP]

Classes usually started with 150-200 students, with the expectation of 50-70% attrition. No set time in pre-phase.

People forget, or never knew, that jump school used to be a selection process in its own right.

 

[Steve1839]

Classes usually started with 150-200 students, with the expectation of 50-70% attrition. No set time in pre-phase.

My class started with 120+/- and graduated 28...only 14 made it without a recycle.

 

[Devildoc]

People forget, or never knew, that jump school used to be a selection process in its own right.

I understand from old-timers who went through jump school in the 50s or 60s that the PT was actually hard, part of being to get people to quit. Now the PT is pretty easy.

 

[AWP]

I understand from old-timers who went through jump school in the 50s or 60s that the PT was actually hard, part of being to get people to quit. Now the PT is pretty easy.

In '93 my class was a joke. I was sore all over from hours and hours of PLF practice, but "PT" was pretty easy even with a sprained ankle. 9 min. mile runs (I snuck a watch out) were the standard. After 3-4 days I couldn't understand why the course took 3 weeks. If you aren't with the program after 3-4 days, 3 weeks isn't changing anything.

 

[Devildoc]

In '93 my class was a joke. I was sore all over from hours and hours of PLF practice, but "PT" was pretty easy even with a sprained ankle. 9 min. mile runs (I snuck a watch out) were the standard. After 3-4 days I couldn't understand why the course took 3 weeks. If you aren't with the program after 3-4 days, 3 weeks isn't changing anything.

I heard "three days crammed into three weeks". I have not been to airborne, but to other courses that were similarly laid out.

 

[Cookie_]

I heard "three days crammed into three weeks". I have not been to airborne, but to other courses that were similarly laid out.

I honestly think it's just a logistics issue that makes it so long. My class was smaller (occurred over Thanksgiving) and we still had ~300-350 people. I think some classes top out closer to 400-450. I spent more time waiting in line than I actually did training anything.

 

[Box]

I went to Airborne School in the spring of 1987 when we were still using the steel pot with the liner, chin strap, t-bar attachment, and throat strap.
I was to young and too fucking stupid to understand what "hard" meant. I just know that "Sergeant Airborne" seemed to enjoy saying "boots not evenly shined" every morning when he walked in front of me. I also heard "helmet not properly assembled" way more times than I cared for.

Then he stood and watched me do mountain climbers and squat thrusts in a sawdust pit full of dipshits that also thought shiny toes were the only part of your boots that mattered or were just too fucking dumb to be able to put all that fucking spaghetti together on that antiquated metal hat...

 

[Steve1839]

I honestly think it's just a logistics issue that makes it so long.

That was the case when I went through in '72. At the time, jump school barracks were down at Lawson Field, so after first formation, we marched up the hill to the training areas. When chow time came around, we marched back down the hill to the mess hall, then made a return trip up the hill for more training. Two round trips per day and based on Google Maps, about a mile and a quarter each trip...

While I would argue the "three days crammed into three weeks", one week of ground and tower training followed by a week to get in the jumps (weather permitting) seemed to work for the reserve component jump schools 10th Group used to run during AT.

PT itself wasn't much beyond unit PT at the time, but punishment for minor infractions, group therapy (punishment) for the same, break area procedures and being the rope man added to the daily dose of physical stress. Strangely enough, I recall doing PT down in the company area before we headed to training where we did what might be termed enhanced PT.

 

[Box]

For history preservation purposes, what was the course like when you went through?

Way back when - there was no selection - the entire course was a continuous selection process. By the time budgets started to tighten in the late 80's the system had started to notice that folks in shitty assignments would volunteer for the SFQC and subsequently PCS to Fort Bragg.

Prest-O, Change-O:
Now you are airborne qualified AND stationed at Fort Bragg instead of that shitty assignment you just left behind...
Failed the PT test?
You're out - carry your ass down the street to the 82nd
Failed the swim test?
You're out, carry your ass down the street to the 82nd
Failed the 12 mile ruck march?
You're out, carry your ass down the street to the 82nd
The Nasty Nick is getting you down?
Fuck right off - I quit.
The Star Exam is kicking your ass?
Fuck right off - I quit.
Boom, the 82d is just a few blocks down the road.

After a while it became obvious that a lot of folks where "volunteering" for Special forces training just so they could PCS to Fort Bragg and then quit. So, mid-1980's SWC stood up Special Forces Orientation Training (SFOT) - aka Special Form Of Torture.
Make everyone suffer through a few weeks of shitty food, some low grade abuse by the cadre, and a few ill defined tasks that had you walking the landscape around Camp Mackall all night long - just so you could go back to your home station and wait for orders, IF you got selected - and it cut WAAY back on the amount of people coming to Bragg and then just quitting a few weeks into phase one.

In the late 1980's SFOT was retooled a bit and became Special Forces Assessment & Selection (SFAS) aka Sore Feet And Shoulders.
In 1990 the long standing 'Phase 1, 2, 3" structure was reorganized so that you did SFAS, then you did Phase 2 (MOS Phase) then you went out to Camp Mackall. That is about the same time that language school was tacked on to the end of the SFQC before you left Bragg and went to your Group.

I trained as an 18D so after completing SFAS, I had to go out to Ft Sam Houston for 10 months to do to SOMED course. Then I cam back to Ft Bragg for Phase-2, then out to Camp Mackall for the combined Phase 1/3. Then I caught up on all of the lost sleep from the SFQC during the next six months of language school - learning how to speak Egyptian.

For the record, I made it through everything on my first try - so clearly, the SFQC was a LOT easier when I went through than it is today.

 

[TLDR20]

I understand from old-timers who went through jump school in the 50s or 60s that the PT was actually hard, part of being to get people to quit. Now the PT is pretty easy.

I went through in 2006. The PT was so easy that I got shin splints from running that slow. Just the constant slow jogging jacked me up. I didn’t know what shin splints were so I just drove on at the time.