The Slope is Slippery

[Etype]

For the purpose of the argument, we'll take it as a given that a man is now allowed to act like a woman (aka be transgender) in society, the military, and otherwise. Now, commenting specifically on the point made at 3:16- if this is now interpreted as a constitutionally protected right, where does it end? This is basically giving legal protection to dress-up. With the new arguments of bathroom/locker room privileges, these legal protections are extending to the point where you may have the right to behave as though you actually ARE what you are dressed up to be.

So where does it end? Could the people who like to dress up as dogs or cats urinate in public?

The slope is slippery, indeed. The possibilities are endless...

This is half opinion based, half predictive analysis, 1/4 conjecture- but I'm sure you guys get my point.

 

[DocIllinois]

As far as violating any Constitutional right with the military "claims" and accoutrement I can't see where's this person is wrong, unfortunately. Could be mistaken on that.

Her Linkedin page does state that she's Pres/CEO of a human and civil rights political party, which would put her into the category of faking the funk in order to obtain tangible benefit for her organization.

Except the "Trans Purple Panther Party" is a non-profit. This person has done some work on finding legal grey areas.

She also uses the title of "Dr." and lists a couple of schools but no degree field or professional experience, which gets right under my skin.


The FEMA ID deal is actual legal trouble, though, under 18 U.S. Code § 912.

 

[Etype]

I was speaking more towards this point-

When an adult decides to play pretend or make-believe, that's one thing.

When that same person demands that you recognize the game as real, it's another.

When that same adult seeks a constitutional/legal means to force you to play along, this is where the real problems could begin.

 

[DocIllinois]

Understood. In this regard I think a key statement comes in at 3:30: "Do you believe I'm Robin?"

Is she forcing belief in a legal manner, or doing things to influence belief and hoping it works out in her favor?

I would suggest that the First Amendment doesn't protect and make legally valid her behavior and appearance to the point that others have no choice but to take her seriously.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I can somewhat understand transgender/transsexual thing with regards to individuals born with both sets of equipment. And think its reasonable/rational for those types to be able to choose which gender/sexuality they most identify as. And within those regards, I think having some protection under the laws is warranted.

These other homo's that just want to be freaks and fuck with people and the system need to be herded up shipped off to a special "freak island" as to stop the stupidity and allow them to live out their lives with their own kind.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I can somewhat understand transgender/transsexual thing with regards to individuals born with both sets of equipment. And think its reasonable/rational for those types to be able to choose which gender/sexuality they most identify as. And within those regards, I think having some protection under the laws is warranted.

These other homo's that just want to be freaks and fuck with people and the system need to be herded up shipped off to a special "freak island" as to stop the stupidity and allow them to live out their lives with their own kind.

This may be the greatest example of a bait and switch post I have even read!

Sunshine, roses, and enlightenment in the first paragraph. Then the second paragraph begins with "These other homos..."

LOL - got beer up my nose!

 

[TLDR20]

I can somewhat understand transgender/transsexual thing with regards to individuals born with both sets of equipment. And think its reasonable/rational for those types to be able to choose which gender/sexuality they most identify as. And within those regards, I think having some protection under the laws is warranted.

These other homo's that just want to be freaks and fuck with people and the system need to be herded up shipped off to a special "freak island" as to stop the stupidity and allow them to live out their lives with their own kind.

To your first point you are confusing transsexualism/gender with hermaphroditism, they are different things.

As to the second point, these people are human beings, they are not freak shows. Have you ever interacted with a trans person?

 

[Ooh-Rah]

As to the second point, these people are human beings, they are not freak shows. Have you ever interacted with a trans person?

I will tell you that I have. Growing up in redneck Minnesota I had an immediate bias towards gay, trans, etc. My wife is much more enlightened than I am and has helped me see these folks as humans, not freaks. My last boss was gay, and we've actually became very good friends - something many years ago I could not envision.

My problem is this. If you want to be gay, trans, whatever, then okay. I've no problem with that - where I begin to get resentful is when your beliefs interfere with mine. I'll use N. Carolina as an example....
What the hell am I missing? If I have my facts right, NC passed a law that states if you have a penis you have to use the the men's room, if you don't, then you must use the women's room. I've seen some argue that it is fixing a problem that did not exist, but what about the 17 year high-school boy who 'feels' like a girl, and wants to use their locker room. There is a problem there. At least for me.

Why do my beliefs automatically have to be homophobic because I do not agree with everything that a homosexual believes should be their right. As a parent, don't I have a right to expect that my daughter can use the bathroom without a man who believes he's a woman sitting in the stall next to her? Where does it stop?

 

[TLDR20]

I will tell you that I have. Growing up in redneck Minnesota I had an immediate bias towards gay, trans, etc. My wife is much more enlightened than I am and has helped me see these folks as humans, not freaks. My last boss was gay, and we've actually became very good friends - something many years ago I could not envision.

My problem is this. If you want to be gay, trans, whatever, then okay. I've no problem with that - where I begin to get resentful is when your beliefs interfere with mine. I'll use N. Carolina as an example....
What the hell am I missing? If I have my facts right, NC passed a law that states if you have a penis you have to use the the men's room, if you don't, then you must use the women's room. I've seen some argue that it is fixing a problem that did not exist, but what about the 17 year high-school boy who 'feels' like a girl, and wants to use their locker room. There is a problem there. At least for me.

Why do my beliefs automatically have to be homophobic because I do not agree with everything that a homosexual believes should be their right. As a parent, don't I have a right to expect that my daughter can use the bathroom without a man who believes he's a woman sitting in the stall next to her? Where does it stop?

Gay and trans are different. But I get what you are saying.

The trans person I know is a woman. You couldn't pick her out of a line up of 10 real women. She has a penis. She now will have to go into a male bathroom. Who is that traumatic for? Everyone. It is stranger for the little boy and girl to see that then for the ZOMG possibilityit will be used nefariously.

 

[metalmom]

I used to be homophobic as well.My son-a hell of a lot smarter than me did change my views. Used to think being gay-changing your sex etc was a mental illness.Do not think that way any longer..I no longer pass judgements.Sometimes this starts at 4 yrs old for Gods sake when for example the 4 yr old boy dressed in girls clothes when starting school with his parents going along with this.He is now transgender and had every operation.To me he is a woman.

Ooh-Rah-I feel the same in regards to your daughter using the restroom.If they go through the surgeries a male wont have a penis anymore and will be a woman though imo.
Watched too much Oprah back in the day.
Understand where some of you are coming from.

 

[Marauder06]

Gay and trans are different. But I get what you are saying.

The trans person I know is a woman. You couldn't pick her out of a line up of 10 real women. She has a penis. She now will have to go into a male bathroom. Who is that traumatic for? Everyone. It is stranger for the little boy and girl to see that then for the ZOMG possibilityit will be used nefariously.

I don't understand this. If the trans person you know has a penis, then biologically isn't that person by definition a man not a woman?

 

[metalmom]

I would agree they are still male without the surgeries. most trans do the surgeries-hormones etc.I imagine it comes at a hefty price tag.

 

[TLDR20]

I don't understand this. If the trans person you know has a penis, then biologically isn't that person by definition a man not a woman?

Sure biologically. You must believe there are more than biological determinants for all elements of humanity. There are a million studies on nature vs nurture and biological vs environmental determinants. You can look them up you have an Ivy League education.;) totally joking here.


She cannot yet afford the surgeries which cost thousands and thousands of dollars. But she should be in a men's room? Again she is by all accounts visibilly a woman. Think about how she would be treated walking into a men's room.


As an offshoot, anyone here seen Transparent? It is on Amazon Prime. It is a drama about a man who has been trans his whole life yet was ashamed to admit it, and didn't come out till he is in his 60's. It is well done. Entertaining, but will shed light on some of the issues faced by trans people.


Edited for clarity on my sarc.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

To your first point you are confusing transsexualism/gender with hermaphroditism, they are different things.

As to the second point, these people are human beings, they are not freak shows. Have you ever interacted with a trans person?

I was attempting to make the point of support for laws that would protect and allow hermaphrodite's who later choose their personal sex that may have been different from the way they grew up.

I was also making the point that transsexual/gender is complete bullshit and I absolutely disagree with a dude dressing like a girl, going into the same bathroom as my wife or daughter's, and if caught, "He" (because if you have a penis you are a "he") better hope a cop gets to him first. No I do not hang out with dudes that dress like girls, are you kidding me? I'm a barrel chested, beer drinking, shit talking Texan. People like that don't do well in my circle's

And you can call me homophobic or racist, call me inhumane, whatever you care to. Bottom line, I'm none of those thing's and just because I personally feel a man who dresses like a girl is a freak and that what these "transgender" people are doing with our legal system is a complete freak show, doesn't mean we cannot find some common ground, hints my first paragraph of my first post and this one...

$.02

 

[DocIllinois]

I was attempting to make the point of support for laws that would protect and allow hermaphrodite's who later choose their personal sex that may have been different from the way they grew up.

I was also making the point that transsexual/gender is complete bullshit and I absolutely disagree with a dude dressing like a girl, going into the same bathroom as my wife or daughter's, and if caught, "He" (because if you have a penis you are a "he") better hope a cop gets to him first. No I do not hang out with dudes that dress like girls, are you kidding me? I'm a barrel chested, beer drinking, shit talking Texan. People like that don't do well in my circle's

And you can call me homophobic or racist, call me inhumane, whatever you care to. Bottom line, I'm none of those thing's and just because I personally feel a man who dresses like a girl is a freak and that what these "transgender" people are doing with our legal system is a complete freak show, doesn't mean we cannot find some common ground, hints my first paragraph of my first post and this one...

$.02

Unless the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-V is bullshit, Gender Dysphoria is real.

How likely is it that someone will find common ground with anyone when the dialogue starts off with one calling the other a freak, or suggesting that their segment of the population be sent to an island en masse?

Perhaps a petition could be spearheaded to assign separate bathrooms for transgender folks.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Unless the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-V is bullshit, Gender Dysphoria is real.

How likely is it that someone will find common ground with anyone when the dialogue starts off with one calling the other a freak, or suggesting that their segment of the population be sent to an island en masse?

Perhaps a petition could be spearheaded to assign separate bathrooms for transgender folks.

So as a medical doctor, when you have a patient that has a penis, do you list that patient as a male?

As for my comments on "freak island" it was meant jokingly as we all know that will never happen. As for my choice of the word "freak" it is grounded in the definition of the word and although antagonistic by use, is completely and legitimately in use specific to the issue of transgender.

As much as I do agree that in the ideas of debating to find common ground, its poor character to use antagonistic wording, or what can more commonly/modernly be referred to as a "trigger word". I would also admit I feel its equally reasonable for people to take into count the full meaning of the words being used.


As for the Psychiatrics of transgender, I have no doubt crazy people exist, but do have doubts regarding a dude dressing like a girl and pissing in the woman's room, and that in some way that will fix his mental health issues.

But than again, I'm not a doctor and have absolutely no place questioning one or an association of them. So I wont.

Respectfully,

 

[policemedic]

So yesterday I end up handling a portion of an accident investigation. A bicyclist struck a car; the car won. Pt now presents with classic signs of a closed head injury. Tanya--not her real name--is dressed in feminine fashion, is wearing makeup and has a valid out-of-state driver's license listing her as female.

Of course, a proper physical exam reveals Tanya has a penis.

For those unfamiliar with the process, a proper physical exam in this context involves cutting the patient's clothes off--baring their secret for all the world to see. This wasn't done on the roadside but Tanya knew many people involved in her care saw her this way.

In addition to her closed head injury she also sustained multiple abrasions and lacerations to her face and some dental injuries.

Now, this type of injury affects brain function. She can't think straight, can't remember things, has to keep asking questions over and over, and is constantly shifted from trauma bay to scanner and back. She knows something is wrong with her head and brain but doesn't know what or if it can be fixed. She hears us saying what we're about to do before we do it but she's still bloody scared.

She's scared out of her wits. I balance my police and medical responsibilities, touch her hand and wipe her tears away while telling her she will get better as a doctor and I take turns asking her questions.

Everyone, to a man, asked Tanya which pronouns she preferred.

Were we all wrong for treating this biological male with breasts with compassion, as a human being enduring the worst day of their life...despite what we may have individually thought of their life choices?

The answer is no.

There is however a slippery slope here, as @Etype says. Does compassion and respect for another human's personal choice extend to having to incorporate that viewpoint into your personal life? Should a biological male who identifies as female be allowed to use the female locker room, shower and sauna at the gym with your wife and daughter? If you say yes, what if they haven't begun to undergo the transformative process? That is to say, if they walk in looking like a normal dude but say that they identify as female and are therefore entitled to use the locker room would that change your mind? There are certainly many grey areas here and a high potential for problems and abuse.

 

[TLDR20]

So as a medical doctor, when you have a patient that has a penis, do you list that patient as a male?

As for my comments on "freak island" it was meant jokingly as we all know that will never happen. As for my choice of the word "freak" it is grounded in the definition of the word and although antagonistic by use, is completely and legitimately in use specific to the issue of transgender.

As much as I do agree that in the ideas of debating to find common ground, its poor character to use antagonistic wording, or what can more commonly/modernly be referred to as a "trigger word". I would also admit I feel its equally reasonable for people to take into count the full meaning of the words being used.


As for the Psychiatrics of transgender, I have no doubt crazy people exist, but do have doubts regarding a dude dressing like a girl and pissing in the woman's room, and that in some way that will fix his mental health issues.

But than again, I'm not a doctor and have absolutely no place questioning one or an association of them. So I wont.

Respectfully,

I think you don't know what you don't know.

As a provider who has treated transgendered persons, we refer to the patient as how they identify, and then perform an assessment on how they present based on how they present in their transition.

So for example a trans person has had their testicles removed you would still do a genitalia exam, but not a testicular exam. The provider would use the gender pronouns of she, her, and so on. This is medically sound, and the way the professional medical examiner would approach the situation.

The way we as professionals approach gender dysphoria is based on evidence, not on conjecture or personal belief... Basically the opposite of everything that has been voiced on this board.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I think you don't know what you don't know.

As a provider who has treated transgendered persons, we refer to the patient as how they identify, and then perform an assessment on how they present based on how they present in their transition.

So for example a trans person has had their testicles removed you would still do a genitalia exam, but not a testicular exam. The provider would use the gender pronouns of she, her, and so on. This is medically sound, and the way the professional medical examiner would approach the situation.

The way we as professionals approach gender dysphoria is based on evidence, not on conjecture or personal belief... Basically the opposite of everything that has been voiced on this board.

I'll respect that, but ask you this. If I am uncomfortable with a man with penis/balls/still a dude, dressing as a girl, going into the same restroom as my wife or daughter's, am I wrong? Should I be ignored? Should your vast professional understanding, trump my beliefs and caution? <---that's not a vote for trump BS, actually think he is an asshole.

I'll tell you one thing about me, at the end of the day, I don't give a fuck what I am exposed too, I've been there and done that, seen a few thing's in my time. But for my wife and young children, its my job to protect them from such things. And when some smart guy starts telling me how much I don't know about being a father or husband, and attempt's to "legally" tell me eat it bitch, I have issues.

That all said, I ain't as dumb as I come off on the BS on here. I will always yield to your medical knowledge as well as the countless medical professionals on here. And as much as I do respect your open mind (maybe with a lack of understanding on some issues), I think it's equally important to understand a father's and husband's legitimate concern's that are equally important.

So let me be clear, if a male (person with a dick and balls) rolls into the ER, he is documented as a male, regardless what outfit he may or may not have on ( they absolutely should be respectful to their individuality). If a male decides to to take a piss in the women's restroom while my wife or daughter's are in there, I have a problem with it, regardless of what outfit they may or may not have on. If you honestly believe my wife or daughter's should be subjected to a man in the restroom, regardless of the outfit he may or may not have on, without caution or concerns, you ain't as bright as you think you are.......and so you fully understand, I do not mean that as an insult or as to fuck with you (I actually respect and like you on here), but as an "as much as you are opened minded, be open minded to others who may not share your opinions" kinda of thing.

And finally, this gayness is making my fucking head spin!

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I'll respect that, but ask you this. If I am uncomfortable with a man with penis/balls/still a dude, dressing as a girl, going into the same restroom as my wife or daughter's, am I wrong? Should I be ignored? Should your vast professional understanding, trump my beliefs and caution? <---that's not a vote for trump BS, actually think he is an asshole.

Agree with nearly everything you posted above...especially the quoted part. No point in my trying to elaborate, you nailed it.