Trayvon Martin Case

Ex3 said:
I realize I'm beating my head against a wall here, but I'll repeat once again...it appears that Zimmerman followed/chased the kid, AFTER which the altercation occurred.
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Do you have anything to reference this? According to the couple of witness statements that I read, it "appears" that the shots were fired in order to end the altercation.
 
fox1371 said:
Martin was shot in the chest, which IMO would pretty much eliminate the possibility that Martin was running away.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/03/24/dc-crowd-calls-for-justice-for-trayvon-martin/
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You don't know that. Maybe he couldn't get away and turned to fight. Maybe he turned around to ask the guy why he was following him.

Unless the reports are all wrong it has been widely reported that Zimmerman pursued Martin even after the 911 operator said don't. Whether it was a foot chase or just actively walking behind the guy it doesn't matter. Whether he shot the guy in the chest or back it doesn't matter. It stopped being self defense when he followed Martin and Zimmerman is responsible for everything that occurred after that point.

He is not a cop and has no right to apprehend or even detain anyone. He didn't witness any crimes and he sure as hell wasn't defending himself at the point.

For all the other stupid crap there is plenty of stupid crap being said on all sides. Geraldo saying the kid eating skittles and drinking a can of ice tea was as responsible as the person that pulled the trigger because he was wearing a hoddie. that is pretty offensive.
 
Scotth said:
You don't know that. Maybe he couldn't get away and turned to fight. Maybe he turned around to ask the guy why he was following him.

Unless the reports are all wrong it has been widely reported that Zimmerman pursued Martin even after the 911 operator said don't. Whether it was a foot chase or just actively walking behind the guy it doesn't matter. Whether he shot the guy in the chest or back it doesn't matter. It stopped being self defense when he followed Martin and Zimmerman is responsible for everything that occurred after that point.

He is not a cop and has no right to apprehend or even detain anyone. He didn't witness any crimes and he sure as hell wasn't defending himself at the point.

For all the other stupid crap there is plenty of stupid crap being said on all sides. Geraldo saying the kid eating skittles and drinking a can of ice tea was as responsible as the person that pulled the trigger because he was wearing a hoddie. that is pretty offensive.
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Here's the police report.
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Not to nit-pick, but you don't know he wasn't defending himself. No one does. I think fox1371 posted some pretty telling links.

It's sad we have to go to multiple news outlets and websites to get information. Unreal.
 
Scotth said:
You don't know that. Maybe he couldn't get away and turned to fight. Maybe he turned around to ask the guy why he was following him.

Unless the reports are all wrong it has been widely reported that Zimmerman pursued Martin even after the 911 operator said don't. Whether it was a foot chase or just actively walking behind the guy it doesn't matter. Whether he shot the guy in the chest or back it doesn't matter. It stopped being self defense when he followed Martin and Zimmerman is responsible for everything that occurred after that point.

He is not a cop and has no right to apprehend or even detain anyone. He didn't witness any crimes and he sure as hell wasn't defending himself at the point.

For all the other stupid crap there is plenty of stupid crap being said on all sides. Geraldo saying the kid eating skittles and drinking a can of ice tea was as responsible as the person that pulled the trigger because he was wearing a hoddie. that is pretty offensive.
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Bullshit! :thumbsdown: It became self defense when:

the "victim" felt his own life or someone else's was in jeapordy
the "attacker" had the means and ability to inflict harm (21 foot rule applies)

Do you honestly think a trained police force would not arrest ANYONE of a crime involving a firearm if there was evidence of self-defense? I would be willing to bet the homicide detectives looked at the scene and provided their expert input: no crime. I wasn't there but I'm pretty sure they didn't let Z walk because he was Latino.

When did Z-man lose his right to citizen's arrest?O_o When does the right to self-defense end by following someone?
 
TH15 said:
Here's the police report.
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Not to nit-pick, but you don't know he wasn't defending himself. No one does. I think fox1371 posted some pretty telling links.

It's sad we have to go to multiple news outlets and websites to get information. Unreal.
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I'm sure Zimmerman was defending himself at the very moment of the shooting and we all agree there probably was some type of confrontation. We will probably never know what truly happened because one of the prime witness is dead.

The point is, BEFORE there was ever a confrontation, the point at which Zimmerman chose to pursue the kid he gave up the self defense argument. There wouldn't have been a later confrontation if he hadn't pursued him and there wouldn't have been a need to defend himself regardless of what actions either one took because there wouldn't have been a confrontation in the first place.

He is not a cop and it's not his job to pursue people.
 
You're right, he isn't a cop. But he is the neighborhood watch "captain" or whatever. I think it's pretty clear this guy wanted to be a cop, so he is naturally going to try to be like one. That said, I don't think its illegal to follow someone to see what they are up to. It's his neighborhood. I don't know what kind of neighborhood it was, or the crime rate, etc, etc., but I know I don't like suspicious people in mine and I absolutely have no problem checking something suspicious out. Is it illegal for me to do that? Is it illegal for me to approach a stranger in my neighborhood to see what's up? No, its not- and I've done it a few times and will probably do it in the future, too.

The local police don't seem to think he gave up the whole self-defense argument. I have no reason to question their opinion.
 
Scotth said:
I'm sure Zimmerman was defending himself at the very moment of the shooting and we all agree there probably was some type of confrontation. We will probably never know what truly happened because one of the prime witness is dead.

The point is, BEFORE there was ever a confrontation, the point at which Zimmerman chose to pursue the kid he gave up the self defense argument. There wouldn't have been a later confrontation if he hadn't pursued him and there wouldn't have been a need to defend himself regardless of what actions either one took because there wouldn't have been a confrontation in the first place.

He is not a cop and it's not his job to pursue people.
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Wow. Well, using that "logic", one could argue that Martin died because HE caused his own death by fighting with Zimmerman, who was bleeding from the nose and back of his head according to the police report.

Following someone is legal.
Assualt is illegal.
Discharging a firearm resulting in death while exercising self-defence is legal.
 
The good news in all of this is that the case will be tried in FL and he'll receive a fair and impartial jury like Casey Anthony which may or may not vote with the masses (like the Anthony case) just to end the case so they can go home.

My home sweet home of Flori-derp.
 
Freefalling said:
The good news in all of this is that the case will be tried in FL and he'll receive a fair and impartial jury like Casey Anthony which may or may not vote with the masses (like the Anthony case) just to end the case so they can go home.

My home sweet home of Flori-derp.
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But it'll be in a federal court. Guilty or innocent, I bet Zimmerman does time in jail. The public court has already found him guilty.
 
lindy said:
Wow. Well, using that "logic", one could argue that Martin died because HE caused his own death by fighting with Zimmerman, who was bleeding from the nose and back of his head according to the police report.

Following someone is legal.
Assualt is illegal.
Discharging a firearm resulting in death while exercising self-defence is legal.
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Do you think the kid, who was being pursued feared for his life and didn't have a right to defend himself? That is the big difference here who is pursuing and who is being pursued. If they got into a physical confrontation who is at fault, the kid getting pursued?

If you want to talk flawed logic lets talk about yours. By your logic what precipitated an event doesn't matter at the point I feel threatened I can pull a gun and kill that person. So I could go talk shit to someone and at the point I feel threaten I would have the right to pull my gun and kill that person? I go to a restaurant and get bad food and I confront the waiter and if I feel threatened by the response of the waiter I can pull my gun and kill them?

Look at comments from other people like Allen West who said Zimmerman had not right to pursue the kid and the Stand Your Ground law doesn't apply because he followed the kid. If Zimmerman was being followed it would have been a different case.
 
Allen West is in the same boat as the President- keep your fucking mouths shut.

Scott, how do you know he was being "pursued?" How do you know Zimmerman didn't just approach the kid without a chase?

I also don't buy the argument he "feared for his life." Again, how do you know what he was feeling? The kid was much bigger compared to Zimmerman. And, he's a teenager- not necessarily a group known for being bashful and saying "no" to a fight.
 
Scotth said:
Do you think the kid, who was being pursued feared for his life and didn't have a right to defend himself? That is the big difference here who is pursuing and who is being pursued. If they got into a physical confrontation who is at fault, the kid getting pursued?

If you want to talk flawed logic lets talk about yours. By your logic what precipitated an event doesn't matter at the point I feel threatened I can pull a gun and kill that person. RIF (Reading Is Fundamental). Perhaps you should read my post again.

So I could go talk shit to someone and at the point I feel threaten I would have the right to pull my gun and kill that person? No, talking shit is not illegal. I go to a restaurant and get bad food and I confront the waiter and if I feel threatened by the response of the waiter I can pull my gun and kill them? If I felt that you were in jeopardy (by words or actions of the waiter), the waiter has a steak knife, and is approaching you (21 foot "rule"), I'd put two in his chest and one in his face, yes, the waiter would most likely die.


Look at comments from other people like Allen West who said Zimmerman had not right to pursue the kid and the Stand Your Ground law doesn't apply because he followed the kid. If Zimmerman was being followed it would have been a different case. Please cite the FL law where it is illegal to follow someone.

pursue
1. to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc. ;chase.
2. to follow close upon; go with; attend:

Your choice of verbs indicates intent and is apparent you've swallowed the MSM "news". How do you know he intended harm? Follow would be more appropriate in my opinion.
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TH15 said:
You're right, he isn't a cop. But he is the neighborhood watch "captain" or whatever. I think it's pretty clear this guy wanted to be a cop, so he is naturally going to try to be like one. That said, I don't think its illegal to follow someone to see what they are up to. It's his neighborhood. I don't know what kind of neighborhood it was, or the crime rate, etc, etc., but I know I don't like suspicious people in mine and I absolutely have no problem checking something suspicious out. Is it illegal for me to do that? Is it illegal for me to approach a stranger in my neighborhood to see what's up? No, its not- and I've done it a few times and will probably do it in the future, too.

The local police don't seem to think he gave up the whole self-defense argument. I have no reason to question their opinion.
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A few points:
a-Neighborhood watch captain= civilian without authority or official sanction. There's nothing wrong with that, mind. Actually, I applaud the sense of civic duty exhibited by members of neighborhood watches. But let's call it what it is.
b- State laws vary, and I'm no expert on Florida law enforcement. However, in PA it can be illegal to follow someone around in a public place unless you're a member of the constabulary.
c- Is it illegal for you to approach a stranger in your neighborhood to see what's up? You're free to engage anyone you like in conversation. The better question is, what are you going to do when the guy you're talking to is up to no good, and he decides to up the ante?
 
fox1371 said:
Do you have anything to reference this? According to the couple of witness statements that I read, it "appears" that the shots were fired in order to end the altercation.
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​
At shortly before 7:15, George Zimmerman, who volunteered for the development's neighborhood watch, spots Trayvon standing outside the development's clubhouse near the community mailboxes, where the teen had ducked under an awning to get out of the rain. Zimmerman calls police on a non-emergency number from his SUV, saying he sees a suspicious person.​
​
When Trayvon leaves the clubhouse, Zimmerman pursues him in his car. Trayvon is talking on his cell phone to his 16-year-old girlfriend in Miami. She says Trayvon tells her someone is following him. He sounds nervous. She tells him to run.​
​
Trayvon goes off the road to walk between two rows of town homes, down the lane from his destination, Zimmerman gets out of his car and pursues him on foot. He tells the dispatcher "oh shit, he's running." the dispatcher asks if he is pursuing the subject. When Zimmerman says he is, the dispatcher says, "we don't need you to do that."​
​
They don't get far. Just around the back lane, Trayvon is confronted by the stranger in a red jacket and jeans - he's not dressed like a police officer. Trayvon's girlfriend is still on the phone. She says she hears someone confront Trayvon, and ask him what he was doing there. The phone drops.​
​
At that time, the first 911 call is placed to police by an alarmed neighbor, who reports hearing a fight going on in their backyard. It was followed in rapid succession by five more calls to the emergency number. One caller says she hears someone screaming for help, and then gunshots.​
A 7:17 p.m., the first officer, Officer Smith, arrives at the gated complex, responding to Zimmerman's 911 call. In his report, he says that as he arrives, dispatchers notified him of the 911 calls reporting shots fired in the area.​
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http://goo.gl/SzAyN

That's an amazingly quick response time to the 911 calls. You can question the style of reporting here, but I only posted it because it had the time Zimmerman first called 911 and when other 911 calls came in about shots being fired.
 

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