United States & Gun Control discussion.

[Bypass]

These topics push my buttons. It is hard to give a logical argument when the other side of the debate is so illogical and driven by emotions. "But do it for the kids." ??? You mean the same kids who are killing each other because of a failed government and educational system? The same kids who would shoot my mother for a fucking pair of shoes. No,,, not all kids today are miscreants and mental cases just as all gun owners are not insane. I mean fuck I'm crazy but you don't see me running around killing people indiscriminately. No because I believe in GOD and I know Jesus wouldn't approve. People today have no moral compass and the liberal education they are receiving is making everything PROGRESSIVELY worse. See what I did there "PROGRESSIVE". So what exactly does the LEFT want us to progress into?

In today’s world with President Trump getting hit daily a little Bible Lesson might be appropriate.

Remember what Jesus said: 'Goats on the left, sheep on the right' (Matthew 25:33).

Jesus also told Peter that if he wanted to catch fish do it from the right side of the boat He did and filled the boat with fish.

John 21:6 (NIV) ... He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish."

Origin of Left & Right..I have often wondered why it is that Conservatives are called the "right" and Liberals are called the "left".

By chance I stumbled upon this verse in the Bible: Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV) - "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."

Thus sayeth the Lord. Amen


End of lesson! ...Test to follow on November 6, 2018.

Remember, November 2018 is to be set aside as rodent removal months

"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

Why don't we ever hear about the 'left' hand of God? Yeah.....

 

[SaintKP]

Seriously?

 

[Lefty375]

These topics push my buttons. It is hard to give a logical argument when the other side of the debate is so illogical and driven by emotions. "But do it for the kids." ??? You mean the same kids who are killing each other because of a failed government and educational system? The same kids who would shoot my mother for a fucking pair of shoes. No,,, not all kids today are miscreants and mental cases just as all gun owners are not insane. I mean fuck I'm crazy but you don't see me running around killing people indiscriminately. No because I believe in GOD and I know Jesus wouldn't approve. People today have no moral compass and the liberal education they are receiving is making everything PROGRESSIVELY worse. See what I did there "PROGRESSIVE". So what exactly does the LEFT want us to progress into?

In today’s world with President Trump getting hit daily a little Bible Lesson might be appropriate.

Remember what Jesus said: 'Goats on the left, sheep on the right' (Matthew 25:33).

Jesus also told Peter that if he wanted to catch fish do it from the right side of the boat He did and filled the boat with fish.

John 21:6 (NIV) ... He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish."

Origin of Left & Right..I have often wondered why it is that Conservatives are called the "right" and Liberals are called the "left".

By chance I stumbled upon this verse in the Bible: Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV) - "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."

Thus sayeth the Lord. Amen

It surely can't get any simpler than that.
Spelling Lesson: The last four letters in Am
erican......... I Can
The last four letters in Republican........ I Can
The last four letters in Democrats........ Rats

End of lesson! ...Test to follow on November 6, 2018.

Remember, November 2018 is to be set aside as rodent removal months

"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

Why don't we ever hear about the 'left' hand of God? Yeah.....

You implications of the left and right in the Bible corresponding to modern political parties is unfounded and laughable, bibically speaking. However, maybe there are some New Testament scholars who provide evidence of this, but I doubt it. I would love for you to explain how the early Jewish/Christian community predicted the political split in US politics, though.

Moreover, with talk about emotions and the common sentiment of "reals over feels" I'm surprised you didn't see the flaw in your argument about human progress. That is, in almost every measurable metric, violence has decreased in the short and long term and we live in the safest time period, ever. See: Graphic evidence: Steven Pinker's optimism on trial

If you want to talk data points and not emotions or bible verses, I'm game. My positive claim is that very few things, if any, are worse for all people in the United States, currently. Of course, that can turn the other direction and trend on a negative side. To be clear, what I am claiming is that for most people, things are getting better. Equality of rights, standard of living, rates of violence are just a few factors that are better for Americans now than ever before. This news, supported by data, does not support the doom and gloom agenda that fuels the cancerous 24-hour news cycle so it's not talked about.

 

[Crimson]

All of this

I can accept the first paragraph and your emotional stance/feelings on this subject, and that's fine, I read that stuff on here every day. However, as a student of the Bible and an avid proponent of Christian values in American culture (which begins in the home), I will have to say that everything from the bold face type down set Christianity back a few notches. And I truly don't think I need to back this up...it was cherry picking, at best.

And like @Lefty375 said, if there is any scholarly basis for this, I truly would enjoy the opportunity to read this persons interpretation of The Word.

 

[Lefty375]

Clearly you don't understand the difference between an argument and a STATEMENT. I'm not arguing anything. I refuse to argue with leftists.

Since you clearly got emotional in your response maybe you could tell me your stance on gun control and liberal ideology. I'd find it fascinating.

Perhaps you are correct and I just can't grasp the concept of an argument and a statement. That's within the realm of possibility, however, your statement "people today have no moral compass and the liberal education they are receiving is making everything PROGRESSIVELY worse." seems to be a positive claim about the state of affairs, thus an argument. Moreover, I have only taken one formal logic class but I believe an argument is a set of statements or premises that support a conclusion. Therefore your statement can be seen as an argument and it might help putting it into premise form which will illuminate why it is, in fact, an argument.

P1: People today have no moral compass.
P2: There is a lack of moral compass because of the rise in liberal education people are receiving.
_____________________________________
Therefore, everything is getting progressively worse with the rise of progressiveness and liberal thought.

This argument could then be evaluated for validity and soundness. If you can explain what doesn't make this an argument then I would like to be informed, for my own knowledge.

Moreover, I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was getting emotional as that was not my intention. I posted data points and would love to discuss data on violence and how much worse off or better we are as a society and world. The data suggests it's decline which I stated in my first post along with a graphs.

I'm quite unclear as to why you assume my political leanings. I'm not sure where I stand now as I have much to learn about the world. I do enjoy the works of Nozick, The Friedman's, Sowell along with people like John Rawls. Surely, if I could just pick a "side" like it seems you have, my life would be easier. However, I don't think political philosophy is quite so simple and spend a lot of time reading papers and thinking about it. Hopefully this answer does give you some insight to where I might possibly stand.

Another thing that chaps my ass. How in the hell can you serve or have served in the military and swore an oath to defend the constitution and want the government to take away your second amendment rights. I get people from other countries want to see us disarmed but how can you?

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States ...

Without digressing too much, there are surely different ways of interpreting the Constitution. That is to say, on the Supreme Court we have some of the brightest legal minds who have thought about the Constitution very likely more than anyone on this board. They don't always agree because legal Constitution scholarship probably isn't as easy as some on this board would have us believe. If you were addressing me, I don't think Americans should be disarmed, however, your post might have just been to the forum at large.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

. My positive claim is that very few things, if any, are worse for all people in the United States, currently. Of course, that can turn the other direction and trend on a negative side. To be clear, what I am claiming is that for most people, things are getting better. Equality of rights, standard of living, rates of violence are just a few factors that are better for Americans now than ever before. This news, supported by data, does not support the doom and gloom agenda that fuels the cancerous 24-hour news cycle so it's not talked about.

I agree, that over the past hundred years, things have gotten better for the average American due to advances in medicine, agriculture, technology and our rise as a first world power. The issue for many Americans, is that for some reason the more liberal elements in our society (largely democrat with a good smattering of republicans/centrists/pick a flavor) are pushing for firearms laws that are similar to our globalized counterparts.

I think that the push for a globalized standard of civilian firearm ownership is flawed and will lead to abuses of power by governmental entities. I think the sentiment that Bypass was trying to convey, was that the American people are tired of being ruled by leaders who have a vision that does not correlate with the average American. That certain elected leaders are trying to rule by force and not by principle. If we look at the stage for the Trump presidency and his resulting treatment, at the hands of the political elite from both parties, does one start to see the unscrupulous character of those same politicians pushing to enact more rules and regulations for firearm ownership.

The problem I'm seeing nowadays, is that media and misinformation alter reality to a certain extent. It is too easy to sensationalize a tragic event, paint it as 'normal' or 'a cultural thing', in an effort to both profit off a tragedy and smear the law abiding America public.

 

[Fl_Ag]

@ThunderHorse I definitely see where you're coming from, bro. I used to have the very same hardline stance on the Second Amendment. I carry a pocket Constitution and Bill of Rights I try to read over at least a couple times a year because, as @Bypass just mentioned, we swear an oath to support and defend it. Here's my hang-up, though: in the non-combat arms military of which I'm a part, dude, there are many, many people I don't think I would feel comfortable handling a rifle to. So if that holds true (it's an opinion) of fellow military members, how many more civilians must be out there incapable of responsibly owning and handling certain types of firearms. Hell, my room mate's girlfriend (another Air Force EW officer) is straight up nervous when we're cleaning our weapons after a day at the range and afraid to handle them herself.

I think the Second Amendment is critical to our way of life, for sure, but in the light of recent arguments, I'm starting to think the idea of limiting who can obtain certain types of weapons isn't so far fetched. I'm no expert in Constitutional law, but really do believe there is a way to reform gun control while meeting the intent of our founding fathers when they ratified the Second Amendment.

@CQB, you mentioned that legal ownership of firearms has gone up while violent crimes has gone down. Can you expand on that? Genuinely interested in the advancement of gun rights (is that a phrase?) in Australia.

 

[ThunderHorse]

@ThunderHorse I definitely see where you're coming from, bro. I used to have the very same hardline stance on the Second Amendment. I carry a pocket Constitution and Bill of Rights I try to read over at least a couple times a year because, as @Bypass just mentioned, we swear an oath to support and defend it. Here's my hang-up, though: in the non-combat arms military of which I'm a part, dude, there are many, many people I don't think I would feel comfortable handling a rifle to. So if that holds true (it's an opinion) of fellow military members, how many more civilians must be out there incapable of responsibly owning and handling certain types of firearms. Hell, my room mate's girlfriend (another Air Force EW officer) is straight up nervous when we're cleaning our weapons after a day at the range and afraid to handle them herself.

I think the Second Amendment is critical to our way of life, for sure, but in the light of recent arguments, I'm starting to think the idea of limiting who can obtain certain types of weapons isn't so far fetched. I'm no expert in Constitutional law, but really do believe there is a way to reform gun control while meeting the intent of our founding fathers when they ratified the Second Amendment.

I suppose the difference for me is that I grew up in SoCal where most people don't possess firearms in the open to an extent. I only knew two of my friends whose father's hunted. The town south of us would have drive bys every weekend during Children's birthday parties. I used to believe that we needed pretty hard gun control in this country before I studied government and the Constitution at a higher level when I entered VMI. Sic Semper Tyrannis.

My view changed following that formative period and my first few years in the Army. I wholeheartedly believe that the Second Amendment is there to protect not only the First, but an individual's rights against a tyrannical government. The views of people from Europe and Down Under doesn't work for me because most refuse to understand that tenet. Or has been my experience. And when totalitarian regimes enact confiscation methods, a lot of people tend to die following the disarmament of the populace through governmental tyranny.

Now, I'd say the Air Force is failing your fellow Officer and that she's failing the Air Force by not practicing outside of work to gain confidence. Just my view.

 

[Fl_Ag]

I appreciate the background that's shaped your beliefs. Once again, I'm not suggesting anything near a firearms confiscation, just that I believe there is a middle-ground that restricts certain levels access while meeting the Second Amendment's intent - "[protecting] individuals' rights against a tyrannical government," just as you said.

Now, I'd say the Air Force is failing your fellow Officer and that she's failing the Air Force by not practicing outside of work to gain confidence. Just my view.

I agree wholeheartedly that someone, somewhere is failing if a commissioned officer is afraid of handling a firearm when there is a standing requirement for them to be qualified for deployment (as they are in this case).

Thanks for your input, brother.

 

[Fl_Ag]

...contrary to what the left paints, violent crime and the murder rate have down in the US, too. Interestingly, the cities with the toughest gun laws have the most gun-related violence and murders.[/QUOTE] .

Yeah, I'm definitely tracking on this. I think our national media is out of goddam control and we're going through phase of sensationalism as a country which makes rational discussion a lot of these topics damn near impossible.

Edit: Handicapped at handling quotes.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

I am putting a pause on this thread via lock until a mod or admin has time to come in and straighten things out.

Come on guys. Professional conversation, right? I’m telling you now that points and or/thread bans may be assessed after reviewing comments.

 

[ShadowSpear]

I just cleaned this thread up a bit. A couple of your fellow members were awarded a thread ban for a week.

Do I really need to remind people to keep it professional?

 

[Devildoc]

So what’s A or a combinational solution?

Great question. What I know is that laws controlling access to guns, or prohibiting where guns can be carried, do not work. Since 1990 (school gun-free zone law was passed), there have been 15 school shootings resulting in 174 deaths. Additionally, the AWB was passed in 1994, so there was a period of significant inactivity or selling, but they were still being used. Charles Whitman did not have an AR in the U of Texas bell tower and we know that turned out.

So I don't think additional laws will work.

 

[Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆]

Teach children respect for firearms. Teach children gun safety. Teach children that when they pull the trigger they can’t bring that bullet back. Teach children kindness. Teach our children to think of others above themselves.

 

[Fl_Ag]

Also social media monitoring to see markers of dangerous behavior.

All for this. But who would be responsible for its implementation? This is the question I'm struggling with. The schools? Law enforcement? Is it a zero tolerance sort of thing that would have ousted Cruz before he got a chance to carry out the shooting, or is it case-by-case so we don't fry the 15 year-old, hormone-crazed, bullied kid who had a particularly bad day?

 

[Gunz]

Remington has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. One of the reasons is that the gun and ammo panic buying craze during the Obama years plummeted when gun-friendly Trump took office.

Be that as it may, I've become increasingly disappointed in the Remington product over the years, both guns & ammo.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

I think we should focus on enforcing the numerous laws already on the books. Heck, I honestly think we could do to get rid of some of the ridiculous laws put in place while being tougher on gun violence. As for punishing the people that commit egregious acts of violence on innocents, we need to bring back hanging.

Now I know that I'm going to catch a lot of flack for my statement above, but hear me out. Human beings are social creatures and in this day and age image plays a big role in our society. With hanging there is a deeply negative social stigma attached to it, as it's not a dignified way to die. The way things are set up, people are able to commit heinous acts of violence on their fellows and get to keep on living in a shitty, but closed, prison system. Instead granting someone their 15 minutes of fame and three meals for the rest of their miserable lives, humans that commit these sort of violent crimes need to be hung and have their body disposed of in a quick and efficient manner.

If we as a country start to really punish crime, to include political corruption, and stop sensationalizing/glorifying gun violence (looking at certain cultural norms in the US) the 'need' for firearm regulation simply wouldn't exist. Instead, people are going to wring their hands and demand that we all give up our privacy and collective rights, so they can futz off and pretend that they've solved the problem.

 

[RackMaster]

@ThunderHorse I definitely see where you're coming from, bro. I used to have the very same hardline stance on the Second Amendment. I carry a pocket Constitution and Bill of Rights I try to read over at least a couple times a year because, as @Bypass just mentioned, we swear an oath to support and defend it. Here's my hang-up, though: in the non-combat arms military of which I'm a part, dude, there are many, many people I don't think I would feel comfortable handling a rifle to. So if that holds true (it's an opinion) of fellow military members, how many more civilians must be out there incapable of responsibly owning and handling certain types of firearms. Hell, my room mate's girlfriend (another Air Force EW officer) is straight up nervous when we're cleaning our weapons after a day at the range and afraid to handle them herself.

I think the Second Amendment is critical to our way of life, for sure, but in the light of recent arguments, I'm starting to think the idea of limiting who can obtain certain types of weapons isn't so far fetched. I'm no expert in Constitutional law, but really do believe there is a way to reform gun control while meeting the intent of our founding fathers when they ratified the Second Amendment.

@CQB, you mentioned that legal ownership of firearms has gone up while violent crimes has gone down. Can you expand on that? Genuinely interested in the advancement of gun rights (is that a phrase?) in Australia.

Don't take offense to this but if someone is wearing the uniform and is uncomfortable around personal weapons; they are in the wrong job. Even if they don't carry one day to day. That blame is solely on your leadership.

 

[Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆]

Why is it that Some of you still call it “gun violence”?

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Why is it that Some of you still call it “gun violence”?

Because there is all sorts of violent crime that doesn't get the same amount of traction as violence perpetrated with firearms. In this case, since we are discussing firearm related violence, the term 'gun violence' is easier to use.

edit: Should have written, 'Because there is all sorts of violent crime that is not categorized as violence perpetrated with firearms'.