United States & Gun Control discussion.

[Marine0311]

I just came from a lunch with friends when Newtown came up

"Guns R bad" "Restrict that and this and that" "Why" "Guns r bad"

I attempted to logic, reasons, facts and evidence

:wall:

 

[Arrow 4]

Huge miscalculation:

A. There could be anywhere from 10 to 30 million Americans willing to take up arms in such a scenario. And although it's difficult to be precise, it is fair to say that the number of Iraqi insurgents in total would have ranged anywhere from several tens of thousands to less than 100,000. There is no comparison with the sheer volume of armed American citizens who would go to war under the right circumstances.

B. Fractionalization and division within the military. I'll put it to you like this: in case of some kind of revolution, how many M-1 Abrams do you think will get driven off to aid the "rebels". We had zero (or statistically close to zero) deserting American military in Iraq. If history is any guide, we would have a substantial rate of desertion in case of revolution. Some of those joining the "rebels" would include high ranking enlisted-men and very senior officers with extraordinary levels of expertise.

C. Quality of weaponry, equipment and infrastructure. Pulling from a pool of fighters as large as the United States citizenry, the potential for a large, fit, trained, extremely effective militia to be fielded is very high. Simply put, with enough time, there would be hundreds of thousands of combat-ready, professionally trained American militia-men at the very peak of fitness (former military doing the CrossFit thing, training on their own, keeping up their skills even though they are out), recent veterans, as well as a much larger group of irregular, unprofessional militia-persons. There would also not be the equipment and technology gap we saw in Iraq. American citizens have awesome firepower, as well as a decent compliment of other gear, such as commo, laptops, and other very modern equipment.

I have no comment on the explosives.

The larger point, though, is that this state of American readiness, dormant though it may be, must be maintained in perpetuity in order to always serve as the final guarantor of liberty. When France was occupied by foreign powers, there was an America that could send Airborne to parachute in and Marines to land on it's shores to liberate the country. If, in the future, America were to fall, there's no other United States to come to our aid. We're the last place on earth like this. We must preserve the balance between our government and our well-armed citizenry.

All of this is pure fantasy anyway, at this stage. The laws haven't even been put forward, and we have no idea what is in them. It may be that in the next few weeks, the short-term-memory of America prevails and this whole thing will blow away.

Great post, very well stated!

 

[Arrow 4]

Did they call for anything else? Even Fox is only reporting this "solution" by the NRA, so if the NRA's sole stance is "armed guards in schools" and no weapons ban then I'm deeply disappointed. On the world's stage and all they could do was offer that along with criticism of video games and the press? That's IT? Christ, this thread has more ideas than the NRA with one week to prepare? One week of watching news coverage and it cannot even propose solutions that our unwashed masses thought of? And this is the leading voice of the 2nd Amendment?

Wayne LaPierre, your fail boat has arrived.

You must have missed the NRA's press conference...it also set forth a plan to come up with construction/access designs and standards to make schools more secure from these types of incidents. It has been against the law for those who have been adjudicated as mentally ill from obtaining weapons, however a review of the VT shooting it was recognized that the reporting process for that to work was insufficient. As a result, new legislation was passed in order to fix that...still the system lacks adequate reporting proceedures. There is plenty that can be done without banning hi-cap mags and assualt rifles.

 

[AWP]

This suddenly came to so I apologize if I missed it in the 18 pages of this thread:

Pro-gun/ pro-2A literature and arguments frequently cite the Founding Fathers' view on an armed populace.

Where are quotes from the FF which support a weapons ban or restriction?

I understand that things change, but you can find divergent views from the FF on almost any topic, just not on the ownership of weapons. They argued over slavery, taxes, the military, state's rights, Federal powers, and the structure of our government, but not about owning weapons.

 

[AWP]

You must have missed the NRA's press conference...it also set forth a plan to come up with construction/access designs and standards to make schools more secure from these types of incidents. It has been against the law for those who have been adjudicated as mentally ill from obtaining weapons, however a review of the VT shooting it was recognized that the reporting process for that to work was insufficient. As a result, new legislation was passed in order to fix that...still the system lacks adequate reporting proceedures. There is plenty that can be done without banning hi-cap mags and assualt rifles.

No, I read their statement.

I'm firmly against a ban on high-cap magazines and "assault" rifles, but the main crux of the NRA's plan addressed schools and barely touched upon the societal issues which caused this. As I stated earlier, I think this board has come up with better ideas, more diverse ideas, and more realistic ideas than what the NRA could come up with in a week. I think they fell short.

I read Fox and CNN's coverage of the press conference and then I read the NRA's statement. The leading 1/3 from both "news" agencies had the same information. Reading the statement they weren't wrong: the NRA focused on schools and hardening them 9which I support) but offered nothing new to the debate. No new solutions or causes.

I'm on the fence about waiting until Friday for the press conference. On one hand it gave them time to prepare and they weren't trying to convey a message while the country's blood was up. On the other, they were completely silent for a week and didn't bring a lot to the table when they did speak up.

Even some of the Republican base is shying away from them and firearms. The NRA should have grabbed the bull by the horns and it didn't. It fell short.

Maybe they will offer something more in the coming weeks, but they're reactive instead of proactive.

 

[Totentanz]

post

Additionally, they played DIRECTLY into the "NRA says the solution is more guns", which is like putting out a batting tee in the major leagues.

 

[Arrow 4]

Additionally, they played DIRECTLY into the "NRA says the solution is more guns", which is like putting out a batting tee in the major leagues.

I think that is a false narrative being advanced by the media. There is a difference between saying, let's put cops in every school and saying we just need more guns in the market. I believe that this simple plan would be the most effective action we can take as a country in the short term while we wrestle over what other action may be appropriate. MSNBC was bashing the idea last night by claiming it wouldn't work and pointing to the fact that Virginia Tech had two armed security guards on duty at the time of the shooting. My response to that is it was a failure of scale (Size of campus/# of students compared to the number of security) They also pointed to the fact that there was a cop working at Columbine when that shooting occurred. The officer engaged the two suspects, then retreated to the parking lot where he stood by with other officers until SWAT arrived. This does not take into account the dramatic shift in how LE trains for and responds to active shooter scenarios today. Individual officers at that time were taught to do exactly as that officer performed...the world has changed and so has our response.

 

[Totentanz]

I think that is a false narrative being advanced by the media. There is a difference between saying, let's put cops in every school and saying we just need more guns in the market. I believe that this simple plan would be the most effective action we can take as a country in the short term while we wrestle over what other action may be appropriate. MSNBC was bashing the idea last night by claiming it wouldn't work and pointing to the fact that Virginia Tech had two armed security guards on duty at the time of the shooting. My response to that is it was a failure of scale (Size of campus/# of students compared to the number of security) They also pointed to the fact that there was a cop working at Columbine when that shooting occurred. The officer engaged the two suspects, then retreated to the parking lot where he stood by with other officers until SWAT arrived. This does not take into account the dramatic shift in how LE trains for and responds to active shooter scenarios today. Individual officers at that time were taught to do exactly as that officer performed...the world has changed and so has our response.

It is a false narrative. However, it's a very easily identified talking point for the MSM use to misportray the NRA (and by extension, gun owners), that the NRA played directly into...

I'm not arguing with the point itself, I'm just annoyed that with a week to analyze public perception and pull together a statement, not only did they fail to grab the bull by the balls and get ahead of the opposition, they played directly into their hands with their statement.

 

[CDG]

I got the same thing in my email, pardus. The petition I signed was asking to uphold 2nd Amendment rights.

Yep. I also signed one calling for the deportation of Piers Morgan.

 

[Chopstick]

Yep. I also signed one calling for the deportation of Piers Morgan.

Link me..Id like to get in on that!

 

[CDG]

Link me..Id like to get in on that!

Here you go m'lady: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...piers-morgan-attacking-2nd-amendment/prfh5zHD

 

[parallel]

...but the main crux of the NRA's plan addressed schools and barely touched upon the societal issues which caused this.

That's probably because they're the NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION, not the National Fucked Up Psyche Association or the National Out of Control Culture Association. Their purpose is to protect our 2cd Amendment Rights, not to figure out what ails sick people and sick cultures.

 

[Totentanz]

That's probably because they're the NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION, not the National Fucked Up Psyche Association or the National Out of Control Culture Association. Their purpose is to protect our 2cd Amendment Rights, not to figure out what ails sick people and sick cultures.

Doesn't mean they can't call a spade a spade... especially when they're taking the blame for some spades.

 

[parallel]

Totentanz, I understand. I was talking about those who say they're disappointed seemingly because the NRA didn't solve the mass shooting ills of America after having an ENTIRE week to think about it.

 

[AWP]

One of those stories which probably won't see a lot of airplay.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs...s-sends-kids-high-security-school_691057.html

The NBC host would go on the rest of the segment to suggest that armed guards might not be effective in preventing mass murders at school. Which is perhaps an interesting theoretical argument.
But when it comes to Gregory's own kids, however, they are secured every school day by armed guards.

Hypocrites.

 

[Chopstick]

Oh this is just nifty.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blo...addresses-215214269--abc-news-topstories.html

A newspaper in New York has received a wave of criticism from its readers after publishing the names and addresses of all of the individuals with handgun or pistol permits in its coverage area.
Hundreds of residents in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties were surprised to find their names and addresses listed on a map posted by The Journal News on Sunday. Users can click any dot on the map to see which of their neighbors has a permit for a gun.
The map sparked more than 500 comments from readers within a day of its appearance on the website, many of them voicing outrage at the paper's decision to make the information public.
"This is CRAZY!! why in the world would you post every licensed gun owner information?? What do you hope to accomplish by doing this. This is the type of thing you do for sex offenders not law abiding gun owners. What next? should i hang a flag outside my house that says I own a gun? I am canceling my subscription with your paper today!!!" said commenter Curtis Maenza.
"How about a map of the editorial staff and publishers of Gannett and Journal News with names and addresses of their families…," wrote commenter George Thompson.
All of the names and addresses were compiled through public records. The paper also requested the information from Putnam County, which is still compiling the records for publication, according to The Journal News' website.
In a statement to ABC News, The Journal News said its readers "are understandably interested to know about guns in their neighborhoods," because of the conversation about gun control on its website after the shooting in Newtown, Conn., last week.
"We obtained the names and addresses of Westchester and Rockland residents who are licensed to own handguns through routine Freedom of Information law requests. We also requested information on the number and types of guns owned by permit holders, but officials in the county clerks offices in Westchester, Rockland and Putnam counties maintained that those specifics were not public record," the statement read.
"New York's top public-records expert, Robert Freeman, disagrees," it added.
The paper declined to answer further questions about the map.

 

[JBS]

Just another reason New York sucks donkey dick.

Pollution, WAY overvalued slummy properties stacked on top of each other like 300 square miles of human wasp nests, bums on every other corner, traffic that would make me want to smoke pot to cope with it, and the cherry on top is Mayor Furor Bloomberg.

Ostracizing law abiding citizens with the complicity of local governments: just add it to the list of why New York blows.

 

[Tana]

Oh this is just nifty.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blo...addresses-215214269--abc-news-topstories.html

"There is nothing more horrifying, than stupidity in action." - Adlai Stevenson.

 

[Hillclimb]

Wow. I'm speechless, I honestly do not know what I would do if that happened to me. How did that fly through the work place without one person speaking up and saying.. 'this is fucked up.' And if someone did, shame on the editor, or whoever had the last call on sending this to the print without thinking it over.

 

[Chopstick]

Wow. I'm speechless, I honestly do not know what I would do if that happened to me. How did that fly through the work place without one person speaking up and saying.. 'this is fucked up.' And if someone did, shame on the editor, or whoever had the last call on sending this to the print without thinking it over.

I hope they get sued.