United States & Gun Control discussion.

You seem to be negating part of the 2nd Amendment in favor of the part you like which I don't understand. Regulation doesn't equate to infringement. Every right is regulated.

No I'm not, I am just not trying to twist the verbiage to suit my opinion. I know most rights are being regulated, that doesn't mean it is constitutional or right.

Take full auto for example, there is absolutely zero reason to regulated full auto, its just stupid. Suppressors, same thing.

It is impossible to go through daily activity and not commit some sort of a crime, regardless how minor the crime. Felons pay a debt to society before being released from prison/parole. Why should they after paying their debt to society, be exempt from self protection?

Why should someone who.has been treated for a mental illness lose their right to self protection?

If we are so afraid of the felon and the crazy, why allow them back into society?

More to the point, why should law abiding citizens be punished and restricted, because of the actions of criminals and mentally ill. I mean really, the logic just doesn't make any sense at all.
 
No I'm not, I am just not trying to twist the verbiage to suit my opinion. I know most rights are being regulated, that doesn't mean it is constitutional or right.

Take full auto for example, there is absolutely zero reason to regulated full auto, its just stupid. Suppressors, same thing.

It is impossible to go through daily activity and not commit some sort of a crime, regardless how minor the crime. Felons pay a debt to society before being released from prison/parole. Why should they after paying their debt to society, be exempt from self protection?

Why should someone who.has been treated for a mental illness lose their right to self protection?

If we are so afraid of the felon and the crazy, why allow them back into society?

More to the point, why should law abiding citizens be punished and restricted, because of the actions of criminals and mentally ill. I mean really, the logic just doesn't make any sense at all.

JAB, the second amendment says that gun rights should be regulated. Which means it's Constitutional and Right. You are the one 'twisting the verbiage' and I really don't understand why you are doing that.
 
I'm still trying to find where the 2A says; [Originally posted by pardus] [JAB, the second amendment says that gun rights should be regulated. Which means it's Constitutional and Right. You are the one 'twisting the verbiage' and I really don't understand why you are doing that.]
As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives:[29]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State:[30]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.​
 
I'm still trying to find where the 2A says; [Originally posted by pardus] [JAB, the second amendment says that gun rights should be regulated. Which means it's Constitutional and Right. You are the one 'twisting the verbiage' and I really don't understand why you are doing that.]


Read the first four words of the 2nd Amendment. Give me your take on it if you disagree that it means our gun rights should be regulated.
 
Use the reasonable man theory here people... would a reasonable man hand a gun to a felon, a child, or a mentally or emotionally damaged individual? That in itself is regulation, by the same account, the spirit of the 2nd Amendment is that those who would qualify for the militia would own guns, and along with that right comes the responsibility of protecting your neighbors and the country as a whole when called. By this reasoning - a sane, healthy non-felon should be afforded the opportunity to own reasonable weapons for self and proximal protection. Note, that a militia is a secondary force of protection, and when that militia is seconded under an army, then it should have the same military arms as their primary force. In peacetime why would a citizen need an automatic weapon to protect a homestead, or a suppressor? Magazine limitations are foolish, but a drum magazine is not reasonable in a normal hunting or home security situation. A limit on belt fed, fully auto weapons is prudent - and rational. and that is regulation, by reason. Unreasonable regulation is like in NY, NJ, and IL where even hunters are restricted in ownership, and normal capacity of manufactured firearms. An AR platform weapon was designed for a 20-30 rd mag, not a 7 rd magazine. Is the regulation to semi-only reasonable, imho, yes it is. A pistol designed for 16 rounds should hold 16 rounds.

The point is moot in the argument - the 2nd Amendment does call for regulation to support a militia - and prudent safe use by the populace, not to form an armed camp of vigilantes and marauders...

JAB, if somebody handed one of your kids a loaded pistol and defended it by saying, it's the kid's 2nd Amendment Right, would you agree, or wait until you thought your kid was ready, trained and responsible enough to have a loaded pistol. That's fucking regulation too, why are you better than the government to regulate firearms in the hands of anybody?

again - this is all moot - and the argumentum ad absurdum of the food regulation was nowhere even close to a reasonable argument. when our society regains its moral, ethical and logical compass this argument will cease to be a talking point... we are nowhere close to regaining that.
 
JAB, the second amendment says that gun rights should be regulated. Which means it's Constitutional and Right. You are the one 'twisting the verbiage' and I really don't understand why you are doing that.

I am not sure where you are seeing that the bill of "rights" would give the government power to regulate the very rights that are protected. Your use of "a well regulated militia" is incorrect, I've tried to point that out, maybe someone else will do a better job. Simply put, even SCOTUS who magically believes that 2A can be regulated, doesn't use "a well regulated militia" as the means.
 
@x SF med, are you kidding me?

As a parent of course I have more say in the protection and or education of my child. Lets not bring my kids into this argument as you probably will be astonished at how a 6 year old is more safe, proficient and trustworthy, than many of the soldiers and cops I've come across.

The moral compass argument is a good one, but I see it from the otherside of the coin. How is it being moral for a government of a free people in restricting protected rights of the people. This same clowns who work deals to implant their ideas of social justice while conducting themselves as they are above the free citizen and the laws they inact to restrict those free citizens. More over how is it moral to punish law abiding people, due to the actions of criminals and mentally ill.

Your argument is weak sauce my friend.
 
I am not sure where you are seeing that the bill of "rights" would give the government power to regulate the very rights that are protected....

Changing the ability of formerly prohibited races or a gender is not changing the Constitution? In it's own body, the Constitution calls for the ability to change the Constitution by amendment - and you are arguing that any change is wrong...in reference to one of the first changes to that document... the second change, to be exact... so you don't believe the Constitution should be changed but argue that the second change to that selfsame document in unassailable by virtue of it's placement in that document. This is what is known as circular logic, and requires a suspension of disbelief to argue...
 
I am not sure where you are seeing that the bill of "rights" would give the government power to regulate the very rights that are protected. Your use of "a well regulated militia" is incorrect, I've tried to point that out, maybe someone else will do a better job. Simply put, even SCOTUS who magically believes that 2A can be regulated, doesn't use "a well regulated militia" as the means.

You haven't pointed out anything at all coherent with regards to "a well regulated militia", I wish you would.
 
@x SF med, are you kidding me?

As a parent of course I have more say in the protection and or education of my child. Lets not bring my kids into this argument as you probably will be astonished at how a 6 year old is more safe, proficient and trustworthy, than many of the soldiers and cops I've come across.

The moral compass argument is a good one, but I see it from the otherside of the coin. How is it moral doe a government of a free people moral or just in restricting protected rights of the people. This same clowns who work deals to implant their ideas of social justice while conducting themselves as they are above the free citizen and the laws they inact to restrict those free citizens. More over how is moral to punish law abiding people, due to the actions of criminals and mentally ill.

Your argument is weak sauce my friend.


Do you not have that same moral and ethical right to protect others in the community/country by dint of your acceptance to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic? the argument is not weak from the Judeo-Christian Underpinnings of the Constitution, and the founding of this country - all citizens, by your argument, should be treated the same, right? Are children not citizens? Should we not allow them the same rights as we deserve?
 
In debating/discussing the 2nd Amendment in general, & the "well regulated" portion in particular, it's important to note that there are variations in interpretation-not just from legal scholars, but Supreme Court rulings as well. Those interested in the latter should look at United States v. Miller, District of Columbia v. Heller, & McDonald v. City of Chicago.

Most important of these rulings regarding the current debate here is Heller. There, they make the distinction between the operative clause ("the right of the people to keep & bear arms, shall not be infringed") and the prefatory clause ("A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State"). The Heller ruling states that the operative clause exists independently from the prefatory one. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

As for legal scholars, I thought I'd highlight the 2 big versions. Version 1 would entail JAB's view (as I understand it):

First, as William Van Alstyne (law professor at Duke) points out, the "right of the people" described in the Second Amendment is "to keep and bear arms," not to belong to a militia.

Rather, the Second Amendment adheres to the guarantee of the right of the people to keep and bear arms as the predicate for the other provision to which it speaks, i.e., the provision respecting a militia, as distinct from a standing army separately subject to congressional ...control.... In relating these propositions within one amendment, moreover, it does not disparage, much less does it subordinate, "the right of the people to keep (pg.473) and bear arms." To the contrary, it expressly embraces that right and indeed it erects the very scaffolding of a free state upon that guarantee. It derives its definition of a well-regulated militia in just this way for a "free State": The militia to be well-regulated is a militia to be drawn from just such people (i.e., people with a right to keep and bear arms) rather than from some other source (i.e., from people without rights to keep and bear arms).​

In other words, the right to keep and bear arms is not subordinate to the purpose of having a militia—the notion of a "well regulated militia" is subordinate to the purpose of having an armed citizenry. Furthermore, Van Alstyne points out, the reference in the Second Amendment's opening clause is "an express reference to the security of a 'free state.' It is not a reference to the security of THE STATE." Thus, the purpose of the Second Amendment is to ensure an armed citizenry, from which can be drawn the kind of militia that is necessary to the survival of a free state.

Thus, under the Standard Model's interpretation, the language "well regulated militia" is not a limitation on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, but an outgrowth of that right. As Don Kates describes matters, "[t]hus, the amendment's wording, so opaque to us, made perfect sense to the Framers: believing that a militia (composed of the entire people possessed of their individually owned arms) was necessary for the protection of a free state, they guaranteed the people's rights to possess those arms." Kates concludes this passage by stating that "[a]t the very least, the Framers' understanding of 'militia' casts doubt on an interpretation that would guarantee only the state's right to arm organized military units."

Version 2 is the more liberal view, and one that emerged in the 20th century:

For example, gun-control activist Dennis Henigan writes that "The purpose of the [Second] Amendment was to affirm the people's right to keep and bear arms as a state militia, against the possibility of the federal government's hostility, or apathy, toward the militia." He describes his interpretation of the Second Amendment as providing "that the Second Amendment guarantees a right of the people to be armed only in service to an organized militia," and argues that James Madison interpreted the Amendment as ensuring that
the Constitution does not strip the states of their militia, while conceding that a strong, armed militia is necessary as a military counterpoint to the power of the regular standing army.... Madison saw the militia as the military instrument of state government, not simply as a collection of unorganized, privately armed citizens. Madison saw the armed citizen as important to liberty to the extent that the citizen was part of a military force organized by state governments, which possesses the people's 'confidence and affections,' and 'to which the people are attached.' This is hardly an argument for the right of people to be armed against government per se.
In Henigan's view, which seems representative of the "states' rights" camp, the purpose of the Second Amendment is to guarantee the (pg.490) existence of state military forces that can serve as a counterweight to a standing federal army. Thus, it seems fair to say, the scope of any rights enjoyed by the states under the Second Amendment would be determined by the goal of preserving an independent military force not under direct federal control.

For further elaboration on the above, see: "A Critical Guide to the Second Amendment" by Glenn Harlan Reynolds, 62 TENN. L. REV. 461-511 (1995)

It's up to you to figure out where on this spectrum you fall. As I understand it right now, the "well regulated" part is in relation to the militia in the prefatory clause, not the "right of the people" in the operative clause. Thinking that the 2nd Amendment means "the right to bear arms should be well regulated" is to impose modern usage of language onto a legal document written in the 18th century.

This isn't to say that restrictions on rights are necessarily unconstitutional. We have laws against slander and libel, yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre, etc. We all accept that violent criminals should not have the right to bear arms. How far these restrictions are allowed to be taken is where the debate will occur.
 
...

This isn't to say that restrictions on rights are necessarily unconstitutional. We have laws against slander and libel, yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre, etc. We all accept that violent criminals should not have the right to bear arms. How far these restrictions are allowed to be taken is where the debate will occur.[/quote]


Bingo. We have a winner.
 
We all accept that violent criminals should not have the right to bear arms.

In order to accept that, one MUST accept the FACT that violent criminals ALREADY bear arms regardless of legality of the right. Additionally, one must further accept that various gun laws, if followed, present the lawful gun owner with a dilemma:

accept inability to defend themselves or become a criminal themselves (ref NYC recent mandatory registration).
 
I guess perhaps Remington is starting to feel unwelcome in NYS? Was it something Cuomo said? O_o;-)

Gun maker Remington Outdoor Co. will soon announce plans to open a major manufacturing operation in Huntsville, according to multiple reports.

Military Times said Remington executives are expected to sign a deal on Monday to purchase a 500,000-square-foot facility in Huntsville. The report said Alabama's reputation as a strong supporter of Second Amendment rights was a factor in the decision.

The project will create more than 2,000 jobs in the state, according to Yellowhammer Politics.

http://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/news/2014/02/15/remington-arms-huntsville-plant.html
 
I apologize for the rushed response, but I was lucky enough to hook the wife on Game of Thrones & don't want to squander the opportunity for post-Valentine's Day binge-watching the epicness that is Daenerys Stormborn, Of House Targaryen

In order to accept that, one MUST accept the FACT that violent criminals ALREADY bear arms regardless of legality of the right.
I was using that example as a general illustration regarding rights- the public generally accepts certain restrictions on rights. For example, I haven't heard anyone advocate for a rapist's right to bear arms to be restored. Of course that has no bearing on whether the rapist decides to arm himself or not. I do agree that criminals certainly have a propensity to disregard the law if they see fit. My point was that justifications for restrictions toward our rights can be made. The public has accepted certain restrictions & there are plenty of historical precedents of curtailing complete exercise of rights. That does not be I agree with them all. That is simply an observation of the facts.

Additionally, one must further accept that various gun laws, if followed, present the lawful gun owner with a dilemma:
accept inability to defend themselves or become a criminal themselves (ref NYC recent mandatory registration).

That truly is a dilemma, and lies beyond the scope of what I was trying to address. Passing a law does not ensure it is just. The recent NYC gun SNAFU is IMO a clear step beyond reasonability. I'm a strong advocate for the right to bear arms, & see no legitimate justification for restrictions magazine capacity or registration.
 
@x SF med, I don't know if your not reading my post's or just assuming things that are not being stated. If you go back and read, I stated that I do not support a static constitution and do support amending it. I think if you are going to try and regulate the nbill of rights, it should come in the form of amendment. I also spelled out why it has not been done.

Children are not afforded constitutional rights until made a legal adult, as I understand it. This is evident in their inability to vote.

As for the criminal element, while in prison or on parole they are stripped of their constitutional rights. However, upon release their rights are restored. Having a law that restricts them from exercising one right after their rights are restored is wrong. They paid for their crime, thats the end of it. That being said, I also feel people who murder, rape, kidnap, and commit major crimes against the community should never be released from prison or allowed in society again. More so I believe they should be put to death.

Mentally ill, should be found to be unfit by a judge, and when that is done, they should be put in a funny house until they are fit to be in society. If/when they are found fit, they should have their rights restored and unrestricted.

Morality cannot be legislated, passing laws will not curve or mold the morality of society. Community, religion, and mainly upbringing is what molds the morality of a society. I have always stated that I believe the community should set the tone for laws and or restrictions. What works in the PNW wont work in Texas and so on.

As for your opinions that laws restricting people from the full liberty's of protected rights. I don't see that as being morally just or even reasonable. Who are you or anyone else to restrict my birth rights as an American citizen? Who are you to decide what is okay and what is not? Luckily you are not anybody who can restrict my rights, unfortunately there are too many people who think like you, who have and are still attempting to restrict my rights. And as long as people are out there who are willing to give up their liberty for a false security, this issue will be a splitting point in our society. The people who want to control everyone vs the people who don't want to control or be controlled.
 
Children are not afforded constitutional rights until made a legal adult, as I understand it. This is evident in their inability to vote.

That's incorrect. Children do have Constitutional rights; what they don't have is full autonomy of decision making. The inability to vote does not create a bar to the exercise of other rights, nor to the protections offered by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

As for the criminal element, while in prison or on parole they are stripped of their constitutional rights. However, upon release their rights are restored. Having a law that restricts them from exercising one right after their rights are restored is wrong. They paid for their crime, thats the end of it.
Here again, incorrect. While some rights are restored, others are not. Indeed, some rights were never abrogated in the first place.

I'll stick to the Second Amendment theme of this thread and ask you a direct question. Do you believe a person convicted of a violent felony (let's include burglary as well) should be able to go to a FFL and buy a handgun as soon as they are released from prison/parole?
 
Intressting so children have freedom of speach and religion, gun ownership, 4th and 5th amendment rights? That doesn't seem to be the way it works inbthe school system, family protective services, or in the legal system criminal or civil. But then again if they do inbfact have those rights, than they should have all of them.

Yes I think once the criminal has completed all obligation of sentence, they should be allowed to buy a gun. I think if they are not trustworthy enough, they should have never been released in the first place.
 
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