Vault 7: Wikileaks Release on CIA Hacking Tools

Rog that, my Brother...but I meant how do we, on the outside looking in, determine what to believe? Is it a leak for the good of mankind or is it fucking treachery? Do we build the guy a monument or give him a blindfold and cigarette and shoot his ass?

:-)

I would say that to an extent, that is based on the individual reader's opinion. I say that only because I have seen different scenarios played out where -- military personnel like us here -- can't really come to a unanimous decision as to certain people's actions equaling treason. There is the letter of a law and then there is the spirit of the law...which one is most important differs with everyone.

With all that said, I can't give you a concrete answer for that, Brother. Wish I could!
 
Is it a leak for the good of mankind or is it fucking treachery?

Why does it have to be one or the other? Doesn't this question presume that the will of the government = good of mankind? If the government is working against the 'good of the people' (whatever that might be - not what I want to argue about), then wouldn't treachery, even treason, be for the good of mankind?

I guess, in the end, we all have to rely on our own conscience. In a world where basically no one agrees on what counts as ethical/moral (in the details), we have little else to which we can appeal.

If Snowden/Manning could be shown to have materially hurt the United States (government), but helped the people, how do you judge them?

There is the letter of a law and then there is the spirit of the law...which one is most important differs with everyone.
What do we do when the law is broken? If a law is bad, should we give it deference?
 
I'm sure there's some that believe what they are doing is Loyal Dissent but in reality it is not. We are a society of laws, without we'd be nothing more than the shitholes we fight in. There's ways of reporting internally without repercussions and if they don't trust one avenue, there's others. But we've just ignored and thrown out that system of laws as soon as the only "reliable" means of redress is to toss it out into the ether and let the media (with their own bias), the masses and our enemies for analysis. They aren't picking specific topics, they are copying mass amounts of data and dumping it without concern for its contents because they could never do it themselves.
 
If a law is bad, should we give it deference?

If a law is bad...it's bad...and it should be identified as such and repealed. No deference afforded to it.

The problem with these types of issues, is that there are always two sides that seem feasible to a lot of people. For everyone that sees it as possibly treasonous, there are as many that see it as good and necessary. Again, it's a conscience issue that I can't give a simple answer to.
 
entire post
Lot of assertions there without anything to back them up.

I think one could make an excellent argument that many of the places we tend to visit are actually more lawful than home. What is sharia if not a comprehensive system of law?

When the government - creator, executor, and arbiter of the law - cannot itself follow the law (that it wrote, etc...) what value does that law have?

Do you really believe that there are ways of reporting internally "without repercussion"? Maybe with minimal repercussion, as long as what you are reporting doesn't ruffle too many feathers.

Let me put it to you a different way. I think the system itself is fundamentally broken. You are arguing from the perspective that it isn't. Our words are sort of flying past one another. What would the gov have to do for you to loose faith in it? And if there isn't anything, then I'd suggest that your faith is blind. If you do have a line, and you honestly examine it - chances are good that it's been crossed many times already.

Let's not pretend that any government is some altruistic organization filled with moral saints and Mother Theresa's.

The problem with these types of issues, is that there are always two sides that seem feasible to a lot of people. For everyone that sees it as possibly treasonous, there are as many that see it as good and necessary. Again, it's a conscience issue that I can't give a simple answer to.

Nice point. So if reality is complex, full of nuance and subtlety, why are we trying to impose a binary either-or kind of description on it? Kind of fails from the get-go doesn't it? Example: it is sometime after the sun has started to set, but before darkness has fully taken hold. Is it day or night? Well, reality is more complicated than that. It's not digital/discrete - it's analog/continuous.
 
Nice point. So if reality is complex, full of nuance and subtlety, why are we trying to impose a binary either-or kind of description on it? Kind of fails from the get-go doesn't it? Example: it is sometime after the sun has started to set, but before darkness has fully taken hold. Is it day or night? Well, reality is more complicated than that. It's not digital/discrete - it's analog/continuous.

Very well stated my Brother!
 
There is a quote somewhere (I can't for the life of me find it) saying that liberty is only efficiently eroded over time and through incremental efforts, and as such, incremental erosions of liberty no matter how small must be viciously guarded against. Almost always these erosions are in the name of national security. The fear here is that some day in the next 20-30 years there will be a Minority Report situation which will inevitably lead to a Big Brother situation. Then it's only a matter of time before the thought police come for you because you had a double-plus-ungood thought about the government. Look at the rapid advances in software, computer technology, and neuroscience, and it is not all that far-fetched to believe that a state with the power to surveil nearly everything about your life will eventually have the power to predict your behavior and thoughts. The private sector already does shit like this with metadata and statisticians for marketing purposes. The basis of the argument against such surveillance is that "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance", and such vigilance actively works to prevent every dystopian novel ever. Sure it sounds like some worry-wart sci fi bullshit, but would anyone here really put it past our government that this could possibly happen? And if you do, I point you toward the current utter lack of civilized intelligent discourse anywhere that is not ShadowSpear and the willful ignorance of the masses.
 
Lot of assertions there without anything to back them up.

I think one could make an excellent argument that many of the places we tend to visit are actually more lawful than home. What is sharia if not a comprehensive system of law?

When the government - creator, executor, and arbiter of the law - cannot itself follow the law (that it wrote, etc...) what value does that law have?

Do you really believe that there are ways of reporting internally "without repercussion"? Maybe with minimal repercussion, as long as what you are reporting doesn't ruffle too many feathers.

Let me put it to you a different way. I think the system itself is fundamentally broken. You are arguing from the perspective that it isn't. Our words are sort of flying past one another. What would the gov have to do for you to loose faith in it? And if there isn't anything, then I'd suggest that your faith is blind. If you do have a line, and you honestly examine it - chances are good that it's been crossed many times already.

Let's not pretend that any government is some altruistic organization filled with moral saints and Mother Theresa's.



Nice point. So if reality is complex, full of nuance and subtlety, why are we trying to impose a binary either-or kind of description on it? Kind of fails from the get-go doesn't it? Example: it is sometime after the sun has started to set, but before darkness has fully taken hold. Is it day or night? Well, reality is more complicated than that. It's not digital/discrete - it's analog/continuous.

Your brought up morals, yet state a Sharia based society could be more lawful; pick a side. In a Sharia based society, these whistle blowers would already be beheaded in public; not that I don't think that's a bad idea. But what are we without morals? I know governments are full of moral saints BUT not everyone is inherently out to get you.

There's numerous ways of reporting without "repercussions", internal to the government there's many levels to choose from; just pick one you trust. And I'd suggest they chose the route with the most repercussions, they are now traitors and enemies of the state.

I never said the system isn't broken, I just can't get behind the thought that the whole system is broken. To have that thought, than how can you trust anyone?
 
Your brought up morals, yet state a Sharia based society could be more lawful; pick a side.
I was trying to say something similar to you! I keep bringing up morals/ethics because you seem to be operating on the assumption that there is some inherent correlation between law and morality/ethics. I absolutely reject this! Many of the most heinous and evil mass atrocities in the history of the world have been enacted via the law.

And yet, people cling to the fairy tale notion that following the law more or less means living a moral life.

My point is that just because something is against the law, that does not mean it is wrong. Any more than something would be right just because it isn't against the law. Many laws are themselves immoral/unethical.

There's numerous ways of reporting without "repercussions"
Not to overstep myself here, but I'd suggest that you've never attempted to challenge the gov (institution of your choice) on a matter that cuts to the core assumptions of government. Every instance I know of 1st/2nd hand resulted in: getting ignored (best case), getting peepee smacked, career destruction.

Now, that barely amounts to anecdote, let alone evidence. I don't want to claim that these handful of cases represent all possible cases. But when I combine them with a decade+ of observing and thinking about how systems and bureaucracies operate, I think I'm identifying a pattern.

Power is diffuse at the individual level; it is concentrated at the organizational. No regular person will be as powerful as their organization. Organizations can get away with hammering the nail that sticks out. It's a whole hell of a lot easier that instituting organizational change. Why do you think we have repeated instances of the same bad behaviors over and over? Because no one ever bothered to change the system.

Which segues to the next point:

I never said the system isn't broken, I just can't get behind the thought that the whole system is broken.
I believe it was Einstein who said something like, "Doing something again and again while expecting different results is the definition of insanity."

Time for an analogous thought experiment:
Imagine a machine that takes inputs and produces widgets. It's supposed to give us different kinds of widgets depending on what we input (say, raw materials). We talk a lot about the machine's design, and the principles that drive it's internal behavior. At some point however, we notice that it isn't producing the widgets we want. We still talk a lot about the design and principles, but we can't see inside the machine any more - it was upgraded with radiation shielding at some point. Soon enough, the machine is not only producing widget we don't want, but ones that actually hurt us!

Now we start arguing about the design and principles. But the machine - it's a smart machine, with the ability to upgrade itself. It was also built generations ago. Let's think of it as code for a second (like software with the ability to upgrade). Even though we can see the 'source code' from the original design document, we can't see the current code. It has been intentionally hidden from us. We can maybe see parts of it, and we still see (most) of the output widgets.

So we have a partially black box. We know the original code used to program it. We know only what it allows us to about its current code base. Some of its widgets hurt us. Some might even be 'evil'. But hey, most of them are still arguably useful.

Any machine that does not operate as intended is, (I would argue) by definition, broken. Our black box is broken. It seems to me that the sensible reaction is to find out why it is broken. There's no magic keebler elves climbing into it every once in a while to mess with the output. The machine itself is creating the problems. It is the system that needs fixing.

So I hope that actually helped to clarify my thinking. Complaining about the results of a system, but rejecting the possibility that the system is the cause of those results is a common human tendency I have a very hard time sympathizing with. It's like the person trying to dig themselves out of a hole. Or using shitty disposable razors to shave, complaining about it, buying ointments and such to treat the symptoms, but then going back for more shitty razors.

To have that thought, than how can you trust anyone?
This is the best question I've heard in quite a long time. One, I think, that is actually pretty illuminating.

But first, to answer: I don't! Not unequivocally. I retain my moral prerogative and obligation to make each decision myself. I can accept expertise, advice, guidance, etc. But none of that abrogates my (and your, and everyone else's) moral obligation to take responsibility for their own actions. I do not let the government live my life for me. I do not trust the FDA to never allow anything on the market that might harm me, I do not trust speed limits to keep me out of accidents, I do not trust government bureaucrats to know best how all of our children ought to be raised, etc. etc. etc.

So, I think this question or worry is might show us why we don't want to believe that the system (whatever system that might be, from the federal gov, to local gov, from your unit, to your church, from your company to your club) is the problem.

Lets stop stacking bandaids on top of each other, stop treating the symptoms, and start dealing with the root problem.

Nice post. I'd request some paragraphing so that it's a bit easier to read.

You're spot on about future uses being a primary (not secondary) concern here. Not only do these powers belong to the current 'administration' (I'm using that loosely to refer to whoever is in power - not necessarily just the Presidency), but every succeeding one. Not only do these powers pass down, but they will expand, as all governmental powers inevitably do.

it is not all that far-fetched to believe that a state with the power to surveil nearly everything about your life will eventually have the power to predict your behavior and thoughts
Not only is it not far-fetched, this is reality. Now. Combine enough data points from disparate sources you can predict behavior. Likewise, you can expose thoughts. There's a widespread (and totally, 100% false) meme out there that meta-data is somehow less revealing. It is often far more revealing than the content. Especially in aggregate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you're an American you exist because a group of people were tired of gov't interference in their lives, including search and seizure among other things. With that said, I consider data leaving your computer/ personal devices to be fair game. I vehemently oppose going after our personal electronics for any reason unless you have a warrant.

I find the concept of "I'm doing nothing wrong, so search away" is laughable and incredibly naïve. I'm all for increased security, but fundamentally altering the fabric of our country concerns me to no end.

ETA: forgot an entire phrase
 
Last edited:
I've always considered what you post on the open net, to be free content to whoever. But closed forums, private email, etc, should remain private. I absolutely hate the shit they can do with phones these days. I often thought about doing away with it, not because I have anything to hide, but because it's disturbing that they can watch, listen at anytime anywhere.

I think it's great for tracking terrorist, shocking, if not scary they can do it to anyone they think may be committing a crime. Mostly shocking, that as fucked up as our government has become, you may become the target if you disagree with it.

I'm not a fan.
 
The problem is that these leaks keep happening. Sounds like deeper background checks are needed for clearances and all current employees need a fresh poly.
Shuu uuu uuu uuut UP.
OMG, I am going to hurt you and not the way you like it.
Every time one of these leaky assholes opens their cock holster the rest of us get screwed. And not the way we like it.
The wait time for clearances is insane because these guys have just given the federal security bozos a hard-on for polys (which don't work) and mile-high, bee-bee sized, procedural hoops.
At some point they are going to shut down the security department itself because no one can actually follow policy and still get the job done.
 
These recent posts call to mind an article I encountered the other day on Robert David Steele. I hadn't heard of him before or his Open Everything efforts. Sounds interesting in the article, but his website looks a little... shall we say Alex Jones-ish.

Any insight into this guy and his Open Everything philosophy?
 
Ummm...holy shit.

Edina police ask for whole city's Google searches, and a judge says yes | City Pages

Time to go back and read more thoroughly the links that @Board and Seize post on page one.
WTFO?!

This statement from the article captures it all:
City Pages said:
In the case of "Douglas (something or other)," Edina police are raiding people's Google history to catch a man who tried and failed to commit $28,500 worth of bank fraud.

Do not mess with Edina's banks.
The precedent it sets is terrible. Can only hope that Google fights it; sends it to a higher court.

I'd add some belt fed hate to that post but it doesn't seem right to shoot the messenger.
 
Last edited:
That's a very misleading article title. They are not asking for a blanket search history. They are asking for a search of a specific term, between specific dates. I can see where this could turn into a slippery slope, but I personally don't have a problem with that warrant. It's like an Internet version of an APB for a specific car. If you're driving that make/model/color, you're probably going to get stopped and questioned to see if you are who they are after.
 
Back
Top