When thugs attack.

[JBS]

I guess the part of this that I simply cannot process is how anyone can defend a grown man(or in this case a 17 year old young man ) walking through a public street brandishing a knife. Please explain to me exactly what part of that scenario causes you to focus on the behavior of the cop?

Do you have young family members? Are you cool with them sitting on the front porch as a crazy man skips around down your street with a knife in his hand?

 

[Grunt]

The case is based on whether lethal force was justified or not. If it was, one shot or 16 shots don't matter -- in the criminal world.

Now, in the civil world...well, they can use anything in the civil world, but remember, in the criminal...lethal force is lethal force...regardless of how messed up we think it is.

 

[JBS]

As to round count, I don't think there's any difference between 5 carefully placed rounds and 16 rounds. At that point, all you are talking about is perception. That is, the perception of the untrained public. In my opinion what we are really saying here is "guys don't put 16 rounds in him, cameras are rolling, and it looks bad."

Personally I'm perfectly fine with cops shooting bad guys who are running around and brandishing knives.

 

[Salt USMC]

I guess the part of this that I simply cannot process is how anyone can defend a grown man(or in this case a 17 year old young man ) walking through a public street brandishing a knife. Please explain to me exactly what part of that scenario causes you to focus on the behavior of the cop?

Do you have young family members? Are you cool with them sitting on the front porch as a crazy man skips around down your street with a knife in his hand?

I give deference to cops when it's appropriate, but this guy fucked up when he decided to go from zero to 16 in 14 seconds. He shot the guy, stopped, and then continued to shoot. This is in a situation when the other officers on scene did not see the need for lethal force.

Let me quote the summary:

When officers confronted McDonald, he used a knife with a 3 inch blade to slice the tire on a patrol vehicle and damage its windshield. McDonald walked away from police after numerous verbal instructions from officers to drop the knife. He was shot 16 times in 14–15 seconds, expending the maximum capacity of Van Dyke's 9mm semi-automatic firearm. After McDonald fell to the ground, Van Dyke stopped firing for a moment, then opened fire again when McDonald moved, knife still in hand. Van Dyke was on the scene for less than 30 seconds before opening fire and began shooting approximately six seconds after exiting his car. The first responding officer stated that he did not see the need to use force and none of the at least eight other officers on the scene fired their weapons.

 

[DA SWO]

16 rounds is what? one mag?
I think crappy training results in cops putting more rounds out than necessary, but I don't care if it is a justifiable shoot.
1 to the head, 16 to the head; results are the same.
Now if he fired 16 shots and only 1 hit; then I'd be pissed.

 

[policemedic]

The case is based on whether lethal force was justified or not. If it was, one shot or 16 shots don't matter -- in the criminal world.

Now, in the civil world...well, they can use anything in the civil world, but remember, in the criminal...lethal force is lethal force...regardless of how messed up we think it is.

We have a saying here. "It doesn't matter how many shots are fired; it's still just one DC (district control) number."

 

[Grunt]

We have a saying here. "It doesn't matter how many shots are fired; it's still just one DC (district control) number."

That sir, is a fact!

 

[JBS]

@Deathy McDeath: I've watched the video a dozen times. This punk was walking around on a public street with a knife in his hand. I didn't see if you address this in any of your posts. Apologies if you have already commented on this; It's just that I've talked about this issue with others, and those that attack the cop never seem to address the fact that a grown man was on a public street with a knife, and how in this country we should be able to have safe streets. Would you have been okay with the shooting had he been brandishing a gun? Or is it strictly the round count? Maybe if he stopped at 5 round you would be ok? Because if so, then you are judging this situation in a purely arbitrary, highly subjective point of view. And of course it's been covered as nauseum on this board, a knife can be far more deadly than a handgun at close range.

 

[Salt USMC]

Oh sure, let's focus on just the number of shots. Let's also ignore the fact that none of the other cops fired, nor thought it was necessary to fire. Let's ignore the fact that you can clearly see that McDonald is moving away from cops on the video. None of that matters, it's just another dead thug.

Show me the part of the penal code where the proper response for "brandishing a knife" is death.

 

[policemedic]

Probably the same thing the other officers on scene did: not magdump into the dude.

Look, it isn't so much that the cops shot McDonald. It's that this one cop shot McDonald, stopped, then proceeded to empty his fucking mag into the dude's body while he was on the ground. Do you not see how incredibly fucked up that is? Meanwhile, the other cops on scene didn't feel it necessary to use lethal force.

In other words, you have no idea how you would have handled that situation so as to preserve public safety whilst ensuring your own well-being.

 

[JBS]

Okay, this is purely subjective, and based on my own personal life experience, but when I look at that video, McDonald wasn't running away with the knife. He was shuffling, lowering his carry hand, he was still hostile. When I read his body language, it's like he's saying somebody please get close to me...

Yes I know that is just my opinion, but I grew up in the street. How a person moves tells me a lot about their intent

 

[Salt USMC]

In other words, you have no idea how you would have handled that situation so as to preserve public safety whilst ensuring your own well-being.

Fine: beanbag rounds, tazer, OC, any non-lethal option.

If he starts moving towards an officer, then fuck yeah ventilate him. But the video clearly show that that wasn't happening.

 

[JBS]

@Deathy McDeath , what do you think McDonald was going to do with that knife of his if given the opportunity? This guy wasn't out ringing a bell in front of Salvation Army.

 

[racing_kitty]

Was it a case where the cops did not see a need for lethal force, or were they just scared of the legal ass pain that would come with anything other than holding hands and singing kumbaya with the knife wielder?

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I wonder if they counted the bullet holes in Bonnie and Clyde?

If one bullet is justified, so is the rest of your magazine.

 

[Salt USMC]

@Deathy McDeath , what do you think McDonald was going to do with that knife of his if given the opportunity? This guy wasn't out ringing a bell in front of Salvation Army.

He's probably gonna fuck someone's day up.

Look, I'm not denying that the dude made some shitty decisions, but that doesn't mean he instantly forfeits his life. Appropriate level of force for the threat. 8 cops on the scene and not a single one (including the first dudes on the scene) thought lethal force was appropriate. At least, not until that dude showed up.

 

[policemedic]

Fine: beanbag rounds, tazer, OC, any non-lethal option.

If he starts moving towards an officer, then fuck yeah ventilate him. But the video clearly show that that wasn't happening.

Have you ever deployed those weapon systems against a person who is capable of delivering deadly force in an instant while within his lethal range? Have you ever deployed them against anyone operationally under any circumstances?

Your professional training has gifted you with an insufficient understanding of the dynamics of interpersonal violence and left you wholly unprepared for the realities of urban policing. And that's OK, because you don't wear a badge.

I'm not going to provide expert witness testimony on this matter in a forum subject to discovery. I will however say there is a high probability the officer will be exonerated if his defense team avails themselves of proper experts.

 

[Salt USMC]

Well, when you consider that repeated calls were made for units with non-lethals (from the dispatch tape “Gunfire By The Police!" Disturbing Audio Released In Laquan McDonald Fatal Shooting) it would seem to me like SOMEONE on the scene thought that it was the appropriate response.

“Someone have a Taser?” the officer says. “This guy is a walking away but he’s got a knife in hand.”

 

[policemedic]

Making the request doesn't mean it's the right tactic in the moment, or at all.

As someone more than a bit familiar with a Taser I would argue against its use in this scenario.

I'll also point out that someone making the request has no impact at all on the subjective decision made by the officer who fired. That decision stands on its own based on what the officer reasonably believed at the time he fired.

You're making arguments based on what other people have said without a firm grasp of the subject. Hardly a tenable position, sir.

 

[Muppet]

21 foot rule. Ever hear of it? I have seen the aftermath on personal and professional levels. Act like a savage, get dealt with. I am tired of savages acting the fool and when it gets handled, cops are made to be the bad guy while the savage is made to be an innocent victim. I am also tired of race baiting bullshit. Act the fucking fool (name the race), get fucking felt with. People are fucking jerk offs, all races.....

M.