Why Modern Soldiers are More Susceptible to Suicide

Viper1 said:
I'm sorry about this brother. I really am. I got help in the Q course after trying to deal with a divorce and emotions from my first trip on my own. I purposefully went outside of the military to a civilian LMFT in town and paid out of pocket.

What is more telling is that LV and I were friends with a lady who did alcohol/drug abuse counseling at Fort Bragg. She was licensed, credentialed, the whole nine yards. SHE recommended that I seek help outside of the Army system. Talk about an eye-opener.
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It's bad that that you had to go outside the brotherhood of the Army to seek help when you needed it..If I may say, they let you down I'm also horrified Ranger Psych that the Army didn't help you back to fitness and back to what you loved, the Ranger Regt.

We have the PSS manned by Army personal.. What ever the issue its 1000% confidential and even if you admit to being suicidal, you are referred to an outside agency and you still keep your job.

10 or so years ago an NCO who went gaga out in the field while deployed was repatriated home, given medical help and has since been promoted and now working in an Inf Bn as part of the NCO Cadre and no doubt, he will get promoted again and his problems will not affect his career ..
 
Irish, I'm not totally sure how things would have gone down differently if I had still been in Regiment. I do know I was "normal" there... but then again, level of sanity is variable considering I volunteered to jump out of every aircraft they wanted me to, move further, faster, and fight harder than the other guy through worse shit and all that.

I think one thing that would really, really help with the actual understanding and mindset of mental health troops with wtf goes on in the "real world of the military"... would be a required branch detail to combat or combat support troops. I get wanting to get medical people in with a direct commission and keeping them in their field, but when they never experience what the rest of the fucking army even does... there's a huge disconnect. It's like trying to explain shit to civilians at that point. They just don't get it.

Cross-service medical support also doesn't really help especially with the combat experience comprehension level. During the weak-sauce year of monthly meetings being the only military "care" given (plus having to swap through pills) I saw an Air Force full bird psychiatrist, and an Army major psychologist. Neither could really be talked to about what was going on in my head because I'd spend 3/4 of an hour explaining what I was trying to say, since common military jargon like "rucksack" or "objective" or "casevac" eludes their apparent "welcome to the military" classes they get when they get their shiny collar bits out of a fucking crackerjack box that was next to the DSM-IV they bought at a used gift shop.

In the cross-service defense.... initially, I received good care. Unfortunately, the former command shrink for AFSOC who I was seeing, ended up being only TDY to Alaska from Hawaii... and then I got handed off to COL Derptard Extremis IV who couldn't be bothered to keep full track of what the fuck was even going on with me.

Example, and this is from his didactics submitted for review by the MEB/PEB:

I'm married
I'm single
I'm divorced
I'm an only child
I'm the middle
I'm the oldest
I have 8 kids
I have 0 kids
I have 1 kid on the way
I'm a Private
I'm a Sergeant First Class
I'm a Sergeant
I'm on my initial enlistment
I've been in 8 years
I have 1 combat deployment
I have 3 combat deployments
I have no combat deployments

They really paid attention to me and what I had going on. No lip service there. :P
 
I think the problem starts with weak parenting, but it doesn't end there though.

I personally cannot wrap my head around how someone comes to the point of taking their own life, it just doesn't make sense in my head. I had a soldier commit suicide, and he was the last person in the world I would have ever thought to do it, I just don't know how he got to that point, don't understand it.
 
goon175 said:
I think the problem starts with weak parenting, but it doesn't end there though.

I personally cannot wrap my head around how someone comes to the point of taking their own life, it just doesn't make sense in my head. I had a soldier commit suicide, and he was the last person in the world I would have ever thought to do it, I just don't know how he got to that point, don't understand it.
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I disagree with your premise of weak parenting. It may play a role in some cases, but not all.

It is easy to say that, and I understand where you're coming from, if you don't suffer from depression. Once someone has it in their head that there is no hope, no way out, no possible fix action for their problems, then suicide becomes an easy answer for them. You reach a self-perpetuating cycle or endless emotional loop which almost always returns that train to Suicideville, Population: You. You are truly in an emotional hole at that point. While the decision to take your own life may be irrational, to a person caught in that loop it is the only logical conclusion.

I'm not condoning it or justifying it, but people need to understand just how bad you have to hurt and how hopeless you have to feel to take your own life.

As to how to pull someone from that hole, there is no silver bullet. You can help, prod, push them in certain directions, but there is no one-size-fits-all solution to the problem.

I think those last two issues, understanding how someone arrives in that hole, and that there isn't an easy or universal fix are more reasons why we'll never have a handle on suicide prevention ANYWHERE on the planet.
 
goon175 said:
I think the problem starts with weak parenting, but it doesn't end there though.

I personally cannot wrap my head around how someone comes to the point of taking their own life, it just doesn't make sense in my head. I had a soldier commit suicide, and he was the last person in the world I would have ever thought to do it, I just don't know how he got to that point, don't understand it.
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From personal experience of helping a few Brothers off "the ledge", it is usually the ones that you least expect and it's usually because they are doing their best to keep from passing on the pain to their friends/family. They think that this is the only option to remove the "burden" on their loved ones. And all the ones I've known that attempted or succeeded came from solid families.
 
RackMaster said:
From personal experience of helping a few Brothers off "the ledge", it is usually the ones that you least expect and it's usually because they are doing their best to keep from passing on the pain to their friends/family. They think that this is the only option to remove the "burden" on their loved ones. And all the ones I've known that attempted or succeeded came from solid families.
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I'm sure you remember me losing a comrade and again came from a solid family.. No idea and the shear devastation it leaves behind...
 
My point on the weak parenting, is that I think if you don't build up resilience in your kids as they are developing, than it is only logical that that person would less resilient later in life when put under extreme pressure from outside stressors. I don't think that is the case in all scenarios, and I don't think that would be the only reason either. But I definitely see what you guys are saying, and again I can't wrap my head around it in the first place which already puts me at a disadvantage to understanding it.
 
Goon, I hear what your saying, and believe I understand better than most here. I've been treated for severe clinical depression since 1993. I'll be on meds the rest of my life. The former CIA Station Chief in Moag in '93 later described the why of his having issues before his retirement "When you work in a high speed/high stress environment long enough, something eventually will break...." That is somewhat paraphrased, but close. I know what 'the edge' or should say that dark tunnel when you looking down the muzzle of Smith & Wesson looks like. Take the worse hangover, having the shit beat out of you, having your wife divorce you, your dog dying, and your mother telling you that your adopted and she didn't pick you - compress that into the time and space to where ALL of that feels like its coming down on you for days at a time. You fall into isolation not because you feel sorry for yourself, you just don't want to talk to anyone. I was lucky; Womack had a Psychiatrist, long retired from AD, but basically told me that if I killed myself; no matter what I said in a note or whatever, my kids would blame themselves for the rest of their lives. I pull that conversation out and reply it mentally a couple of times a year as a reality check. I hate to think about what my kids would of had to experience growing up if I had decided not to be here. They've turned out pretty damn good despite the fact that my daughter has gone Liberal on me. I just chalk it up to her degree in Social Work. My son was medically disqualed from the military, but is on his second full time job in InfoSec while hopefully graduating with a BS this year. Going from JROTC Bn Cdr to getting his hair cut annually (usually) has taken getting used to though.

Making that final decision (and it is a final one) to take that last step is not a hard one. When you get to that point it really, really feels like the permanent solution to a problem that is not temporary, but one that is just going to get worse every day. The crushing weight of the darkness under which you are under weighs down without letup. We see the issues that these people face as temporary. To them they are not; you've hit bottom and the pickaxe doesn't work. Asking for help is no longer an option; that specific option went by the wayside some time ago. The exercise of that option can be so subtle though, it goes right by and is not noticed. That's because the last bit of will and stamina has been used in 'maintaining an appearance'. The asking for help probably did occur, but NOT in a concrete and recognizable way.

“Death is as light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain”​

​

Pardon me.... I have to figure out which personality took which meds and when. I just wish we could all get along.....
 
cback0220 said:
I'm not saying being in the service is not an excacerbating part of the issue. I think the way we punish young immature soldiers has a lot to do with it.

Let me give a random example that if anything will go along with some points here. Imagine a young married soldier with a baby. That young soldier gets in trouble of some kind. Half pay, restriction, things like this. Now in addition to his work problems he has monetary problems, then the wife leaves. This kid is now fucked everywhere, he is a pariah at work, has no family support system and he kills himself. Is that the Army's fault? I don't know, we can't smoke soldiers now for fuck ups, so they get paperwork. I personally don't know what the solution is. I just don't think it is a 3 hour terrible PowerPoint on the issue.
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I saw that a few times as well. I had at least 3 Soldiers who had gotten married right out of high school and then enlisted. I got the impression that these young men thought that once they joined the service all their problems were therefore solved. In all 3 cases they couldn't provide, his young wife left and then he feels like a failure.

I will also say that it amazed me how these young men would make such a turn around once you sat down with them and gave them some personal guidance. You almost actually see the light bulb light up. I know that's not the answer for all the young men and women, but that was my experience.
 
Ranger Psych said:
Irish, I'm not totally sure how things would have gone down differently if I had still been in Regiment. I do know I was "normal" there... but then again, level of sanity is variable considering I volunteered to jump out of every aircraft they wanted me to, move further, faster, and fight harder than the other guy through worse shit and all that.

I think one thing that would really, really help with the actual understanding and mindset of mental health troops with wtf goes on in the "real world of the military"... would be a required branch detail to combat or combat support troops. I get wanting to get medical people in with a direct commission and keeping them in their field, but when they never experience what the rest of the fucking army even does... there's a huge disconnect. It's like trying to explain shit to civilians at that point. They just don't get it.

Cross-service medical support also doesn't really help especially with the combat experience comprehension level. During the weak-sauce year of monthly meetings being the only military "care" given (plus having to swap through pills) I saw an Air Force full bird psychiatrist, and an Army major psychologist. Neither could really be talked to about what was going on in my head because I'd spend 3/4 of an hour explaining what I was trying to say, since common military jargon like "rucksack" or "objective" or "casevac" eludes their apparent "welcome to the military" classes they get when they get their shiny collar bits out of a fucking crackerjack box that was next to the DSM-IV they bought at a used gift shop.

In the cross-service defense.... initially, I received good care. Unfortunately, the former command shrink for AFSOC who I was seeing, ended up being only TDY to Alaska from Hawaii... and then I got handed off to COL Derptard Extremis IV who couldn't be bothered to keep full track of what the fuck was even going on with me.

Example, and this is from his didactics submitted for review by the MEB/PEB:

I'm married
I'm single
I'm divorced
I'm an only child
I'm the middle
I'm the oldest
I have 8 kids
I have 0 kids
I have 1 kid on the way
I'm a Private
I'm a Sergeant First Class
I'm a Sergeant
I'm on my initial enlistment
I've been in 8 years
I have 1 combat deployment
I have 3 combat deployments
I have no combat deployments

They really paid attention to me and what I had going on. No lip service there. :p
Click to expand...

Likewise: Only the VA had me sit down with a retired CAPT from the Navy who barely paid attention the whole time I was talking. Funny thing too when I went back to work for the police dept the Dept Shrink asked me quote "Did you see any dead bodies?" To which I replied "Well yes sir but you know I was a cop before I deployed right?" He simply wrote fit for duty on a scrap piece of paper and told me to give it to my Zone Commander. That whole interview was all of 10 minutes.
 
I've just finished a book called Hell's Bells and Mademoiselles by Lt Joe Maxwell VC, MC (and Bar), DCM. He left Australia with his Battalion, serving in Gallipoli and France and was one of a handful of originals to return with it. He was awarded the DCM on the 17 Sept 1917, the MC on the 3rd of March 1918, the bar to his MC on the 9th of August 1918 and the VC on the 3rd of October 1918. He was the second most decorated Australian soldier in WW1.

Joe knew of 19 suicides from his mob. 8 he knew definitely to be suicides, the others he was certain of, but felt had been covered up by the families due to the stigma attached.

I don't think the high rate of suicide is anything new. It's always gone on and was most probably under reported in years gone by.
 
Freefalling said:
Once someone has it in their head that there is no hope, no way out, no possible fix action for their problems, then suicide becomes an easy answer for them. You reach a self-perpetuating cycle or endless emotional loop which almost always returns that train to Suicideville, Population: You. You are truly in an emotional hole at that point. While the decision to take your own life may be irrational, to a person caught in that loop it is the only logical conclusion.

I'm not condoning it or justifying it, but people need to understand just how bad you have to hurt and how hopeless you have to feel to take your own life.

As to how to pull someone from that hole, there is no silver bullet. You can help, prod, push them in certain directions, but there is no one-size-fits-all solution to the problem.

I think those last two issues, understanding how someone arrives in that hole, and that there isn't an easy or universal fix are more reasons why we'll never have a handle on suicide prevention ANYWHERE on the planet.
Click to expand...

A friend sent me this link. While a long read it also has drawings if your eyes glaze over.

If you want to know what it is like to suffer from depression and to consider suicide, you really, REALLY need to read this. Break it into chunks if you have to, but this does a very good job.

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html

It's weird for people who still have feelings to be around depressed people. They try to help you have feelings again so things can go back to normal, and it's frustrating for them when that doesn't happen. From their perspective, it seems like there has got to be some untapped source of happiness within you that you've simply lost track of, and if you could just see how beautiful things are...
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When I say that deciding to not kill myself was the worst part, I should clarify that I don't mean it in a retrospective sense. From where I am now, it seems like a solid enough decision. But at the time, it felt like I had been dragging myself through the most miserable, endless wasteland, and — far in the distance — I had seen the promising glimmer of a slightly less miserable wasteland. And for just a moment, I thought maybe I'd be able to stop and rest. But as soon as I arrived at the border of the less miserable wasteland, I found out that I'd have to turn around and walk back the other way.
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I almost made this a separate thread in Gen. Discussion but didn't. Hopefully a few of you are still reading this thread.
 
digrar said:
I don't think the high rate of suicide is anything new. It's always gone on and was most probably under reported in years gone by.
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In past generations alcohol poisoning, OD, accidental death while intoxicated, auto accidents, or simply going on the road into the homeless underground were all options. While suicide was considered an exception, instead of near norm, while there may be doubts or unspoken concern, it was easier to attribute the death to an accident of some nature.

Then there are the living dead... The father of a good friend came home from WWII physically healthy despite a couple of Purple Hearts the family knew of. As he aged he grew more and more remote from his family. He would come home from work, sit with a TV tray in front of the television and eat dinner with a few beers. Then he would go to bed. The next day he got up and did it all over again... through the 60's, 70's, and 80's till his death. He was like a Spinx in the living room. It was not until he had died and at the bottom of a drawer they found his Distinguished Service Cross from an action in the Hurtgen Forest.

Sometimes I think that those of us that do come home, need to remember that we also live for those who never will.
 

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