Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[Teufel]

Could a Marine explain this to me:



Does ITB produce 0311's or is that something every infantry Marine has to complete before going on to an MOS producing course? How does it have a 44% pass rate and IOC has 0%? What are the differences?

You can fail events at ITB and still get pushed through the course and graduate. The standards are not that high. and the course is not that difficult. Almost every event at IOC is a graduation requirement. This is one of the reasons that they are reassessing individual training standards now. Being able to charge a 50 cal should be a graduation requirement for ITB but it is not. You can drop out of hikes, fail the obstacle course etc and still pass.

 

[Marine0311]

You can fail events at ITB and still get pushed through the course and graduate. The standards are not that high. and the course is not that difficult. Almost every event at IOC is a graduation requirement. This is one of the reasons that they are reassessing individual training standards now. Being able to charge a 50 cal should be a graduation requirement for ITB but it is not. You can drop out of hikes, fail the obstacle course etc and still pass.

How long is IOC now? Is there more PT and/or more bookwork as opposed to ITB?

 

[8654Maine]

Went through ITS (prior to ITB) in '85 and became an 0311. It was easy.

Like @Teufel said, the intensity and competition is nothing like IOC.

 

[CDG]

Most of the women have failed on the Combat Endurance Test. Does ITB have anything comparable at any point in the training?

 

[AWP]

Re: ITB..."Holy shit" is the first thing that comes to mind.

Thank you for the explanation everyone.

 

[mac21]

Most of the women have failed on the Combat Endurance Test. Does ITB have anything comparable at any point in the training?

When I went through in 2009, we didn't have anything comparable to the CET.

Marines failed hikes, fell out on ~3 mile range movements, scored below 200 on the PFT, and still somehow graduated.

 

[Marine0311]

Most of the women have failed on the Combat Endurance Test. Does ITB have anything comparable at any point in the training?

Not that I recall. You take a PFT at some point.

 

[Ranger Psych]

I am just going to say that I took a screenshot of all the Marines talking about how hard it wasn't.

 

[Teufel]

How long is IOC now? Is there more PT and/or more bookwork as opposed to ITB?

IOC is basically Ranger school for Lieutenants. I have never been to Ranger school but one of my classmates went in between graduation from the Naval Academy and TBS/IOC. He told me that the field portions felt like being back at Ranger school, the academic aspects were significantly more challenging but we did get weekends off when we aren't in the field and we normally got fed outside of one patrol exercise where they starve you and push you to your limits. I want to say it was seven MREs for 10 days or two weeks. I don't remember. I do remember conducting attacks and moving non stop day and night for two weeks. Sometimes in MOP 4 and God help you if you're in the weapons platoon. I'm not using this as a platform to say that IOC is as hard as Ranger school but the two courses are similar to some degree. ITB is closer to Airborne school. That should put things into frame for everyone.

I believe IOC is 3 months long right now. There is significantly more coursework at IOC. ITB trains you to participate in a squad attack and maybe some patrolling. IOC makes college frat boys hard and teaches them to fight a platoon across the range of military operations in multiple environments. They fly the students to 29 Palms and Bridgeport at the end of the course for the final exercises. Almost everything is live fire. I remember doing a multiple platoon live fire movement to contact through the woods. It's a beast course, one of the best in the Marine Corps. They used to send select SNCOs through.

 

[Teufel]

I am just going to say that I took a screenshot of all the Marines talking about how hard it wasn't.

True story. The Marine Corps places the burden of training on the NCOs at the rifle battalions. Boot camp is tough and is supposed to weed out the weak. ITB teaches Marines the basics but won't come close to the effectiveness of a young Marine Sergeant or Corporal with a deep knowledge of tactics and a loose understanding of the Marine Corps policy on hazing.

 

[Ranger Psych]

I was never hazed. I either was retrained due to my own ineptitude, or I had entertaining assistance in increasing my PT score.

 

[Marine0311]

I am just going to say that I took a screenshot of all the Marines talking about how hard it wasn't.

Like I said it pains me to say that about USMC ITB. Hard in the sense of forced marches and that good livin PT. Beyond that not so much. You're in jacked shape from boot camp so you can drive on.

 

[BloodStripe]

If only you had some weight that you could throw around to change that, @Ranger Psych

Fleet life is different from ITB. I dreaded boot drops not because they were green and inexperienced, but because they were more often than not the physically weakest. In my humble opinion, ITB needs an extra two weeks added to it to allow more time to integrate a PT regimen. Every day is spent training from 05 to 1900 or later if in the field. We only PT'd twice if I remember. Boot camp had at least a few obstacle courses and movement courses that sucked.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Most of the women have failed on the Combat Endurance Test. Does ITB have anything comparable at any point in the training?

Two women passed, the first withdrew within days, the other withdrew three weeks into the course. Both for medical reasons. The total sample size of the last three years is just under 50 I think.

I will continuously say that IBOLC needs to be revamped, I am not an infantry officer, but if you're only training them for Ranger School and not to lead a platoon the day they leave course you're doing it wrong. Which is what they are doing. Everything I've heard about IOC tells me it is ridiculous. But remember that after TBS all those guys do is workout until their class date, so for those that fail, their bodies couldn't take it. Also I've seen complete trash graduate IBOLC (yes, ABOLC had trash too), of the Marine infantry officers I know, all of them are nuts.

This coming from a Cavalrymen who wants nothing to do with Ranger School.

 

[pardus]

This needs to be in this thread.

 

[digrar]

I don't recall doing too much PT during Infantry IETs, we mostly patrolled in marching order heavy, doing section attacks over and over, digging in defensively and working in close country. Some obs and bayonet assault courses as formal PT sessions, a few circuits and runs.
But the 3 months spent mostly in the bush did the job for us and it's that aspect of our course where I don't see m/any females getting through. Especially now as there is an Infantry specific Physical Employment Standards test as a barrier for completion of the course.

 

[pardus]

I don't recall doing too much PT during Infantry IETs, we mostly patrolled in marching order heavy, doing section attacks over and over, digging in defensively and working in close country. Some obs and bayonet assault courses as formal PT sessions, a few circuits and runs.
But the 3 months spent mostly in the bush did the job for us and it's that aspect of our course where I don't see m/any females getting through. Especially now as there is an Infantry specific Physical Employment Standards test as a barrier for completion of the course.

That is the Infanteer's bread and butter.
We didn't do much running at all, no one cared about running too much, but if you couldn't march with a full pack... You're no use.

 

[Teufel]

Everything I've heard about IOC tells me it is ridiculous. But remember that after TBS all those guys do is workout until their class date, so for those that fail, their bodies couldn't take it. Also I've seen complete trash graduate IBOLC (yes, ABOLC had trash too), of the Marine infantry officers I know, all of them are nuts.

This coming from a Cavalrymen who wants nothing to do with Ranger School.

I graduated TBS on a Friday and took the IOC Combat Endurance Test the following Monday morning. I don't think much has changed since I graduated. They normally time IOC course start dates to follow right behind TBS graduations.

Interesting side note, while IOC is a solid kick in the nuts, we are seeing a very high attrition rate in officers, all of whom are IOC graduates, failing the Basic Recon Course.

 

[digrar]

Officers do the same BRC as the other ranks?

 

[8654Maine]

I'm glad to hear BRC is keeping up the standards.