Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[TLDR20]

Everyone is cherry to someone.

 

[pardus]

4-8

OK, thanks.

Everyone is cherry to someone.

From what I've heard, It varies hugely depending on country and time period. Hell some Rhodesian Para's did 3 combat drops in one day. Just luck and circumstance.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Out of curiosity, how many jumps would you do, say per year, on average?

6 years in Bn on airborne status, 64 jumps. Rock a blue id card now, so no free skydiving for me.

 

[pardus]

6 years in Bn on airborne status, 64 jumps. Rock a blue id card now, so no free skydiving for me.

Alright. They sent you to MFF school?

 

[Ranger Psych]

Nope. No need for the missions the line Bn's did.

 

[pardus]

Nope. No need for the missions the line Bn's did.

Gotcha.

 

[x SF med]

In 1980, we had to do at least 10 pullups during training, and a minimum of 5 for each meal. I think we ran at 7-8 min miles, and long runs were to Alabama and back, with heart attack hill as the last part of the runs. Aand we had to run back from the rigger shed after every jump to make sure nobody had any injuries, again up heart attack hill.

 

[pardus]

2011 and I wasn't the oldest either! There was a SGM that had WAY more gray hair that me. Aside from the APFT, we only only ran to the rigger shed and even then females fell out but jumped anyway.

So no 12 mile ruck or 5 mile run in 40 min?

 

[DA SWO]

In 1980, we had to do at least 10 pullups during training, and a minimum of 5 for each meal. I think we ran at 7-8 min miles, and long runs were to Alabama and back, with heart attack hill as the last part of the runs. Aand we had to run back from the rigger shed after every jump to make sure nobody had any injuries, again up heart attack hill.

and we ran everywhere, no walking allowed.

 

[x SF med]

and we ran everywhere, no walking allowed.

... ran everywhere wearing steel pots, and since it was the summer of the heat wave.... rolled through the showers 6x a day, and after every roll through the showers, had to roll through the sawdust in order to evenly coat oneself to look like a piece of shake-n-bake chicken. In white t-shirts that had to be clean every day (brand new t-shirts everyday, sweat, red clay and sawdust do NOT come out when baked in) and spit shined boots every morning prior to PT. It made you feel like it was really a qualification school.

 

[AWP]

Well, I guess I wasn't in the "last hard class"....

 

[Johca]

I just found the 1973 BAC male fitness test minimums in FM 21-20, Physical Readiness Training, March 1973. This was the male standard until the current APFT standard was implemented.

Chin-ups - 6 repetitions
Bent Leg Sit-ups - 20 repetitions
Push ups - 22 repetitions
Half Knee Bend - 80 (two minute period)
I-mile Endurance Run - 8½ minutes or less

Reference Army FM 35-20 Physical Training Women’s Army Corps, February 1975, Para 213. Airborne Trainee Physical Fitness Qualification Test for Women, this was the original initial female standard implemented in 1974 until the current APFT standard was implemented.

Incline Chin ups – 7 repetitions
Knee Bender -50 within a two minute period
Modified Pushups- 22 repetitions
Modified sit-ups- 20 repetitions
An endurance run of 1 mile in 10 minutes or less.

Neither test had a scoring table, just minimums.

The Ranger/Special Forces Physical Fitness Qualification Test, reference FM 21-20, March 1973:

Other than the swim event, the test is same for both Ranger and SF and has a scoring table.

Inverted crawl (age-all) Required minimum raw score- 25.0 seconds
Bent leg Sit-ups (age-all) Required minimum repetitions - 87
Push ups (age-all) Required minimum repetitions - 88
Run, Dodge and Jump (age-all) Required minimum raw score- 24.0 seconds
Two Mile Run (age-all) Required minimum raw score- 16 minutes 80 seconds.
Swim Event all- Pass/fail

Ranger swim 15 meters with clothing, boots, equipment and rifle
SF Swim 60 meters with clothing and boots

FM 21-20, Physical Readiness Training, January 1969 only identifies Airborne Trainee Physical Fitness Qualification. No Ranger or Special Forces Fitness Qualification Test. Also it was not until Army Regulation 600-951, January 1965 that the Army stipulated for the first time that all male and female personnel less than 40 years of age would be tested periodically for physical fitness.


Also reference
History of United States Army Physical Fitness and Physical Readiness Testing (http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/FileDownloadpublic.aspx?docid=8760bed1-b3e5-4520-b782-e13ae4ccd566):

In January 1969, the fifth revision of FM 21-20 was published, and it contained 4 assessments that commanders could use. These were the Physical Combat Proficiency Test, the Minimum Fitness Test-Male, Airborne Physical Fitness Test, and the Inclement Weather Test. The Physical Combat Proficiency Test was considered the standard test and the test items.

 

[reed11b]

When did you go? I had to do pull-ups in 2006.

I went in Nov '93 and no pull-ups.
Reed

 

[Johca]

They let Air Force Security Forces go through BAC and pass it and these days they let them be black hat too, so it can't ever be a difficult physically demanding course anymore even if it was closed to women.

In other BAC physical fitness perquisite news, reference current Perquisites for BAC from ATRRS Course Catalog:

ALL APPLICANTS:
Must be less than 36 years of age on the ATRRS report date. General Officers, Field Grade Officers, Warrant Officers in grade W-3, W-4, and W-5 and enlisted personnel in pay grade of E-5 and above may be considered for a waiver of age when the examining medical officer recommends to the unit commander that such a waiver be granted. Must meet the physical qualification for parachute duty established in AR 40-501. Must weigh a minimum of 105 pounds when screened IAW AR 600-9. Male/Female must pass the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) with a score of 180 points (60 points in each event using the 17-21 year age group scale), complete one flexed-arm hang for 20 seconds, and meet the height and weight standard IAW AR 600-9. APFT will be administered to the students on the first day of the airborne course. Failure of the APFT constitutes a failure of the entrance exam. Students are afforded ten minutes of rest before being retested on pushups, sit-ups, or the flexed-arm hang, and twenty minutes of rest is afforded before retaking the run event of the APFT. Soldiers who fail to meet the established standard will be out-processed from the course.

 

[Brill]

In 1980, we had to do at least 10 pullups during training, and a minimum of 5 for each meal. I think we ran at 7-8 min miles, and long runs were to Alabama and back, with heart attack hill as the last part of the runs. Aand we had to run back from the rigger shed after every jump to make sure nobody had any injuries, again up heart attack hill.

I think I saw that movie in the rigger shed. In all seriousness, you established the point that standards change. For the better?

So no 12 mile ruck or 5 mile run in 40 min?

No, not for jump school.

 

[TLDR20]

I think I saw that movie in the rigger shed. In all seriousness, you established the point that standards change. For the better?



No, not for jump school.

Toughness of a course is directly correlated with length of time since course attendance.

 

[x SF med]

I wasn't stating toughness, just the standards.... it wasn't all that tough.

 

[TLDR20]

I wasn't stating toughness, just the standards.... it wasn't all that tough.

I know, I was busting your balls.

 

[Marine0311]

Certainly, use of steroids by military service members was already a big no-no that was tested for. However, I doubt very few if any got the male looking muscle bulk and cut.

Naturally though it simply is not possible?

 

[x SF med]

I know, I was busting your balls.

Actually the toughest part was having to stand in the damn sun in 105* heat with the GA humidity wearing that friggin brain bucket and having sawdust and red clay everywhere in and on your body....