WTF? Are you saying the majority could not pass this test? For college aged males that want to be in the military, that's pathetic.
Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion
- Thread starter AWP
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WTF? Are you saying the majority could not pass this test? For college aged males that want to be in the military, that's pathetic.
Prior to my reporting to MCRD, I worked as a Recruiter's Assistant for nine months. As such, I was assigned to conduct the PFT's for those wanting to join -- both Officer and Enlisted.
One example of weakness was a candidate for the Naval Academy. I brought him to the rear of the office where our pull-up bar was located. I got on the bar and showed him a proper pull-up. Afterwards, I got down and asked if he had any questions concerning what was being expected of him. He said he didn't.
I directed him to get on the bar and hang there. After he finally got on the bar and hung there for about 20-30 seconds, I told him that he could start. He told me that he had and was trying. Yep, he couldn't even break the bend in his elbow. He had expended every bit of energy he had trying to lift his body up and couldn't lift himself three inches. I actually told him to get down and wait for me to come back. I went inside and talked to the Gunny who directed me to send him away until he was prepared to return and be capable of doing pull-ups.
Simply put...he was pathetic.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
http://warontherocks.com/2014/11/heres-why-women-in-combat-units-is-a-bad-idea/#_
Good piece, and what makes it better is the author comes from an individual in a career field that is usually filled with liberal logic.
Good piece, and what makes it better is the author comes from an individual in a career field that is usually filled with liberal logic.
New MC Times article about some of the women participating in the combat integration experiment. This quote really bugged me:
Pfc. Creasy: Personally, if I'm in a combat mindset, it's not going to matter if I'm out in the field. No one's going to say to me, 'get on that bar and do 20 pullups.' They're going to say, 'oh s---, this guy who's 170 [pounds] went down with his full combat load, get him out.' I may not be able to fireman-carry someone who weighs more than me, but I'm sure as hell going to find a way to get them out. I figure it's more important to have that mindset of sustaining life rather than, I can do 20 pullups and run a 19-minute three miles.
I think this is complete horseshit. Why can't you fireman-carry someone who weighs more than you? I've done it. I've seen a lot of other guys do it. I bet 90% or more of this board has done it. "I'm going to figure it out" is bullshit. If you can't perform, you don't deserve to be there, regardless of gender.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/sto...14/11/29/marines-women-in-combat-qa/19570997/
Pfc. Creasy: Personally, if I'm in a combat mindset, it's not going to matter if I'm out in the field. No one's going to say to me, 'get on that bar and do 20 pullups.' They're going to say, 'oh s---, this guy who's 170 [pounds] went down with his full combat load, get him out.' I may not be able to fireman-carry someone who weighs more than me, but I'm sure as hell going to find a way to get them out. I figure it's more important to have that mindset of sustaining life rather than, I can do 20 pullups and run a 19-minute three miles.
I think this is complete horseshit. Why can't you fireman-carry someone who weighs more than you? I've done it. I've seen a lot of other guys do it. I bet 90% or more of this board has done it. "I'm going to figure it out" is bullshit. If you can't perform, you don't deserve to be there, regardless of gender.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/sto...14/11/29/marines-women-in-combat-qa/19570997/
Her "combat mindset" isn't going to pick that 170 pounds up and get it out of harm's way.
After all, if she utilized that mindset to her fullest advantage, it shouldn't matter to her that she needs to do 20 pull-ups. Meet the requirement or move along smartly.
After all, if she utilized that mindset to her fullest advantage, it shouldn't matter to her that she needs to do 20 pull-ups. Meet the requirement or move along smartly.
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Yeah, it's a bit of a strange one.
I mean, realistically, if you're in a situation where your buddy has been hit and is on the floor... Your Platoon Sgt is roaring at you to get him the fuck into cover to be treated... The people who hit him, aren't gonna have much consideration for you as you "find a way to get him out". It's a case of either pick him up and move him or you're fucking useless to your mates and can't be trusted.
Sigh.
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I can't wrap my mind around it.
Brother, "It's a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma."
She can either do it...or she can't. There should be no changes made. Pass or Fail....
Whatever happened to the KISS principle....many, if not most times, the simpler, the better.
Again, pass or fail...no "thinking about it"...just do it.
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We've all beaten the standard is the standard part of this to death and In light of PFC Creasy's comments, we all realize that most folks fail to rise to the occasion and that most people who plan to rise up end up failing miserably. That said, this will be jammed down everyone's throats, like it or not. It is an agenda, not a search for equality.
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So what say ye' in the know, does the Corps continue to stand tall, or does it eventually reduce standards that even the male officers struggle to complete?
posted Jan 10, 6:15 AM
http://freebeacon.com/blog/exc...rom-infantry-course/
Two female Marine officers who volunteered to attempt the Corps’ challenging Infantry Officer Course did not proceed beyond the first day of the course, a Marine Corps spokesperson confirms to the Free Beacon. The two were the only female officers attempting the course in the current cycle, which began Thursday in Quantico, Virginia.
With the two most recent drops, there have been 29 attempts by female officers to pass the course since women have been allowed to volunteer, with none making it to graduation. (At least one woman has attempted the course more than once.) Only three female officers have made it beyond the initial day of training, a grueling evaluation known as the Combat Endurance Test, or CET. Male officers also regularly fail to pass the CET, and the overall course has a substantial attrition rate for males.
The Marine Corps spokesperson, Captain Maureen Krebs, told the Free Beacon that the two officers, “did not meet the standards required of them on day one in order to continue on with the course.” Fifteen male officers also did not meet the standards. Of the 118 officers who began the course, 101 proceeded to the second day.
The Marine Corps, along with the other services, has been evaluating how to comply with the order to gender-integrate its combat arms specialties by the end of this year, or apply for special exemptions.
The results of the Marine Corps’ experimentation thus far has revealed a pattern: Female enlisted Marines have been able to graduate from the enlisted School of Infantry’s Infantry Training Battalion in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, though at a lower rate than male enlisted Marines, while female officers have faced great difficulty in graduating from the course in Quantico.
This situation has led some involved with the policy debate in Washington, D.C., to suggest that the standards at the officer’s course in Quantico–which are substantially higher than for the enlisted course–are unrealistically challenging, and need to be lowered.
Pressure will become tremendous to reduce those standards–something that the overwhelming majority of Marines, including those women who currently wish to serve in the infantry, believe would be damaging to the service
posted Jan 10, 6:15 AMhttp://freebeacon.com/blog/exc...rom-infantry-course/
Two female Marine officers who volunteered to attempt the Corps’ challenging Infantry Officer Course did not proceed beyond the first day of the course, a Marine Corps spokesperson confirms to the Free Beacon. The two were the only female officers attempting the course in the current cycle, which began Thursday in Quantico, Virginia.
With the two most recent drops, there have been 29 attempts by female officers to pass the course since women have been allowed to volunteer, with none making it to graduation. (At least one woman has attempted the course more than once.) Only three female officers have made it beyond the initial day of training, a grueling evaluation known as the Combat Endurance Test, or CET. Male officers also regularly fail to pass the CET, and the overall course has a substantial attrition rate for males.
The Marine Corps spokesperson, Captain Maureen Krebs, told the Free Beacon that the two officers, “did not meet the standards required of them on day one in order to continue on with the course.” Fifteen male officers also did not meet the standards. Of the 118 officers who began the course, 101 proceeded to the second day.
The Marine Corps, along with the other services, has been evaluating how to comply with the order to gender-integrate its combat arms specialties by the end of this year, or apply for special exemptions.
The results of the Marine Corps’ experimentation thus far has revealed a pattern: Female enlisted Marines have been able to graduate from the enlisted School of Infantry’s Infantry Training Battalion in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, though at a lower rate than male enlisted Marines, while female officers have faced great difficulty in graduating from the course in Quantico.
This situation has led some involved with the policy debate in Washington, D.C., to suggest that the standards at the officer’s course in Quantico–which are substantially higher than for the enlisted course–are unrealistically challenging, and need to be lowered.
Pressure will become tremendous to reduce those standards–something that the overwhelming majority of Marines, including those women who currently wish to serve in the infantry, believe would be damaging to the service
One thing to consider: 3 out of 29 made it past the first day and zero have graduated. If the numbers start to creep up then we'll know the fix is on. I doubt those 29 walked in off the street, I'll go out on a limb and say they were screened and prepped for the course. If they say the standards didn't change but the numbers say otherwise, we'll have our answer.
Brill
SOF Support
They should just go to Ranger School where they will have a better shot of passing.
What Ranger class were you in?
Brill
SOF Support
I'm 100% confident that none of my posts have EVER reflected that I am Ranger qualified. Further, my entries on armyranger.com detailed my pathetic attempt.
My post was a reference to females attending RS and definitely not insinuating that RS is easier than the Marine IOC. Mother Army has put way to much money into ensuring females pass. Plus there is significant pressure from policymakers in DC to see females fully integrated into front line combat units. To make matters worse, it seems that the Marine Corps has the attitude that if a female can meet THE STANDARD, they should graduate whereas the Army will change standards to ensure gender equality. Basic Airborne Course is a prime example.
To further solidify my point: Ranger school pushup minimums are 49 (70% for 17-21 year old males)...I personally did well over 80 but left the pit with just 52 that met the RI's criteria. IF females are required to complete 49 as well (because it is the STANDARD) that would put them well into the extended scale for 71-21 year old females. If the STANDARD becomes (or is translated to) 70 percentile, then 25 push ups would generate a pass on the push up station.
With the new female observers, do you honestly think that a female soldier will hear "too fast...don't bouncing...lock out...go lower...slow down" during the Ranger PFT?
I would also be willing to say that if the enlisted female Marines attended SOI West, zero would graduate.
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Brill
SOF Support
No, not bashing RTB at all but rather disheartened by the Army's decision to cater to pressures of social experimentation. My understanding is BAC used to be a physically demanding school. It is not anymore at all. I did it at 41 and it was easy.
My only interest is that all SOT-A billets are V coded (Ranger qualified parachutist ASI) and THAT is the only thing keeping female soldiers off SOT-As. Once Ranger school is open to females and they begin passing, SOT-As will see females...and then problems will most likely start. (We already have some drama and don't need more.)
I was attached to an ODA that had a CST attachment as well. It was not a good experience for the ODA or my team either. The funny thing was the CST considered themselves SOF because they had been through (a) "selection" whereas we had not. This is despite the fact that my SOT-A was on the task org every mission; CST not so much.
(The part at 1:25 still cracks me up. :-"
)At 2:09 you'll see the CST sweep the Marine CPT right leg. Same CST who would knit during daily team meetings...no shit...knit during team meetings. The 18F would brief about Talib activity and one could hear "click, click, click" of the needles. (NOTE: knitting does not instill confidence in a combat environment.)
To be fair, the CSTs were able to get "things" I was looking for when I could not (which is why the CST was requested to begin with).
In conclusion, I have been in TICs with females who could complete 25 push-ups. I had more confidence fighting with host nation partner forces. (DISCLAIMER: I know male 35Ps have been removed from SOT-As because of piss poor performance. We're not perfect.)
They'll probably lower the standards of IOC to those of enlisted SOI. And if that affirmative action doesn't produce desired quota, they'll water it down some more. It's fucking bullshit. You either pack the gear or you don't. Like my daddy used to say, when you water down whiskey you don't get more whiskey you just get more water. If women can't pass the course you don't lower standards, you make tougher women.
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