16 Marines in California separated for hazing

[rhanzlikusaf]

At least 16 Marines separated for hazing in California

 

[Ooh-Rah]

At least 16 Marines separated for hazing in California

@rhanzlikusaf -

It makes the board slightly more interesting to read and interact with if you add a thought or opinion on the story.

Simply posting a link and moving on is almost as lame as posting a poll.


It would appear that the General has a hardon for stopping the tradition walking the gauntlet and “pinning” new rank or blood stripes.

I kinda sorta see his point. I nearly failed a PFT the day after I made Lance Corporal because my arms were so bruised up I could barely do pull-ups.

That said, I got as far as the paragraph below and had to stop after reading what I have bolded.

I think the General may be taking this a bit too far and making up his own rules as he goes along.

The alleged hazing has included “outright physical assault” as well as forced alcohol consumption, forced haircuts and making Marines do fitness exercises for not knowing certain information, according to an email that the division commander, Maj. Gen. Eric Smith, wrote to all 1st Division commanders and sergeants major in July.

 

[Gunz]

I got blood stripes when I made Corporal. So did every other newly-minted NCO. I'm not saying it's right, but...

Some of this really stinks. Especially what @Ooh-Rah bolded: forced haircuts and making Marines do fitness exercises for not knowing certain information.

WTF? A forced haircut is when your hair gets longer than regulation and your squad leader or PS orders you to get a haircut. It's not like they grab you and tie you down and shave your freakin head.

Making Marines do PT for not knowing their shit or fucking up or having a dirty rifle...Nothing wrong with that. It's exercise. It makes you stronger and teaches you a lesson.

I'd call BS on at least half of this.

 

[AWP]

Something that's missing in America in general is the concept of "consequences." You make mistakes, you pay a price. Can the penalties be too severe? Of course. Should you stop them as a result? Of course not. The punishment fits the crime and even "punishment" doesn't have to be unusual. Late to formation? Here's a smoke session or you can pull another guy's CQ shift or mow the grass or whatever. Does anyone like to police call any area? Nope, but it is a good tool when someone acts like a tool.

Sometimes you need a few minutes of "front-back-goes" followed by some quality time in the motor pool to help you reflect upon your shortcomings. If that ever becomes harassment...

 

[Devildoc]

There has always been a fine line between enforcing discipline and hazing. 99% of those in military leadership positions know where that line is. Not so sure they crossed it here, except for "outright physical assault" and "forced alcohol consumption." A lot of that other stuff is ticky-tack.

 

[x SF med]

The general population can sleep soundly and well because hard men are there to protect them, why are the hard men being disciplined for making sure those that follow are up to the task? Yes, it can go too far, but for combat Marines, that line needs to be higher than the norm for general society and even those in non-combat roles - the job is not easy, nice, nor clean; therefore the men (and now women) who choose to join those ranks need to train to those expectations, and be held to that harder standard.

This GO needs to rethink, regroup and reassess the loss to the USMC of removing hard men/women from the combat ranks for being hard.

just my .02.

Edited for spelling and capitalization

 

[Marauder06]

forced haircuts and making Marines do fitness exercises for not knowing certain information.

WTF? A forced haircut is when your hair gets longer than regulation and your squad leader or PS orders you to get a haircut. It's not like they grab you and tie you down and shave your freakin head.

To me, a forced haircut is exactly that: someone holds you down--or at least compels you not to move--and then someone cuts your hair against your wishes.

I think that in almost all cases a "zero tolerance" policy is posturing and an excuse for poor leadership. I also think that it's extraordinary for a general officer to retain UCMJ authority at his level for an offense like hazing. However, if I felt "lance corporals were giving me the finger" about something, I might try to make some examples, too.

 

[Marine0311]

Poor for for the Marine Corps.

 

[Topkick]

To me, a forced haircut is exactly that: someone holds you down--or at least compels you not to move--and then someone cuts your hair against your wishes.

I think that in almost all cases a "zero tolerance" policy is posturing and an excuse for poor leadership. I also think that it's extraordinary for a general officer to retain UCMJ authority at his level for an offense like hazing. However, if I felt "lance corporals were giving me the finger" about something, I might try to make some examples, too.

Our supply sergeant used to give "free" haircuts with direction of the First Sergeant. Nobody got hurt and the soldier didn't have to pay. Usually, the soldier went to a professional for his following haircuts. Lesson learned.

 

[Topkick]

This GO needs to rethink, regroup and reassess the loss to the USMC of removing hard men/women from the combat ranks for being hard.

Training 16 Marines, soldiers, Sailors, or Airman= a shit ton of money, blood, sweat, and tears. I agree, rethink it!

 

[ThunderHorse]

“They basically notify you in writing: ‘I plan on separating you,’” Stackhouse said in an interview. “You can respond in writing if you’d like. Then the general will make the decision — based upon the underlying misconduct and your petition to stay in — to separate you or not.”

Every separation packet I processed in the Army as an S1 as the middle-man between Companies and the Brigade JAG always required the Soldier to waive or select a separation board. And that was for everything from fatties to DUI to drugs. I'm not sure of the rules in the Corps, but I'm sure it is similar.

 

[Gunz]

To me, a forced haircut is exactly that: someone holds you down--or at least compels you not to move--and then someone cuts your hair against your wishes.

I think that in almost all cases a "zero tolerance" policy is posturing and an excuse for poor leadership. I also think that it's extraordinary for a general officer to retain UCMJ authority at his level for an offense like hazing. However, if I felt "lance corporals were giving me the finger" about something, I might try to make some examples, too.

IMV, holding someone down and cutting their hair is assault. If that's what they mean by "forced haircut", I'm with you.

 

[8482farm]

Although Maj. General Smith might be handling this a little too aggressively, I can understand why he wants to send a "swift kick" through the ranks. Imagine all the new members of the military making if through, at the time, the hardest time of their lives(Basic, Boot Camp, AIT etc.), finally getting to their duty station and getting treated like complete shit by people who they're supposed to look up to. Kind of takes away all the motivation just to wake up early and show up to formation.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

finally getting to their duty station and getting treated like complete shit by people who they're supposed to look up to. Kind of takes away all the motivation just to wake up early and show up to formation.

LOL - sounds like the average Marine's first year in the Corps to me....and yes, I agree with the bolded above. (with a 2nd LOL)

 

[Marauder06]

I'm kind of thinking a little time in the brig and some NJP might be enough to send the message. Separating all of those Marines seems a bit over-reactive, especially if the hazing wasn't particularly egregious. If a little jail time and some extra duty aren't enough for the Lance Criminals to get the message, maybe then up it to GTFO.

 

[Devildoc]

Some of it is criminal. Forced alcohol consumption, physical abuse, that's illegal, then separation after legal proceedings. Some of the other stuff, there could be good Marines that just make a bad call, whose careers just need to be guided with a little bit of leadership and a little bit of discipline. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[CDG]

Some of it is criminal. Forced alcohol consumption, physical abuse, that's illegal, then separation after legal proceedings. Some of the other stuff, there could be good marines that just make a bad call, whose careers just need to be guided with a little bit of leadership and a little bit of discipline. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree that it's illegal, but it also has been a part of military culture for a long time. I think that factor needs to be taken into account. Guys had the experiences they had when they were growing up in whatever branch, and may have been taught that certain things are needed. Some stuff guys will endure voluntarily that would still be considered abuse (blood wings, blood stripes, etc.) I think zero tolerance is a dangerous and counter-productive policy. These Marines should absolutely be punished, to send the message that regardless of how they were brought up some things won't fly anymore. I disagree with separating them though.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Does the Corps still put dudes in the Brig and bring them back to the Fleet. I never saw that in the Army, we just separated problems.

 

[Devildoc]

I agree that it's illegal, but it also has been a part of military culture for a long time. I think that factor needs to be taken into account. Guys had the experiences they had when they were growing up in whatever branch, and may have been taught that certain things are needed. Some stuff guys will endure voluntarily that would still be considered abuse (blood wings, blood stripes, etc.) I think zero tolerance is a dangerous and counter-productive policy. These Marines should absolutely be punished, to send the message that regardless of how they were brought up some things won't fly anymore. I disagree with separating them though.

There is a difference between military culture, enforcing discipline, intensive training, blood stripes, blood wings, tacking crows, all of that, and assault and battery. And there is no room, zero, for forced alcohol consumption. I think there's a fine line between what is legal and what is illegal. The stuff that is illegal should be penalized under the fullest extent of the UCMJ, with time served followed by separation. The rest, those people can be penalized, mentored, trained, and continue on.

 

[Topkick]

Taking away someone's dignity is much different than enforcing customs and traditions and forcing someone to drink alcohol is certainly intolerable. I do think you have to look at the whole situation and decide if a talented young GI made a mistake and learned from it, or is he just forever a douche. What are the patterns? I did some dumb shit as a young soldier and I am grateful that I had a second chance.