Re: forced alcohol consumption. I would like to know more about that specific charge. If it was holding someone down, or tying them up, and forcibly putting alcohol in them, I agree 100%. That's pretty extreme though. I wonder if it was more along the lines of peer pressure to keep drinking even when the servicemember wanted to stop. I wouldn't classify that as forced consumption, unless direct threats of violence were made. To be clear, I am in no way saying anything here is right. I am only arguing for punishment within the service, as opposed to separation.
16 Marines in California separated for hazing
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Re: forced alcohol consumption. I would like to know more about that specific charge. If it was holding someone down, or tying them up, and forcibly putting alcohol in them, I agree 100%. That's pretty extreme though. I wonder if it was more along the lines of peer pressure to keep drinking even when the servicemember wanted to stop. I wouldn't classify that as forced consumption, unless direct threats of violence were made. To be clear, I am in no way saying anything here is right. I am only arguing for punishment within the service, as opposed to separation.
Topkick
Verified Military
Don't ask a General officer to solve your problems for you. General Smith took command in June and was immediately presented with three separate allegations of hazing in two different battalions in the 7th Marine Regiment. Four more allegations popped up in the next two months. The punishment is a bit severe but it is the fastest way to address what appears to be a systemic issue. Generals rarely enforce discipline measures at their level but when they do it tends to be a devastating area effect weapon.
This is honestly a leadership failure at the company and battalion level. Hazing cases like these are normally handled at the battalion level. It appears that the Commanding General did not have much confidence that his subordinate commanders could properly resolve these problems at their level. I would imagine that the commanders of 2/7, 3/7, 3rd Tracks and 7th Marines are glowing Kelvin hot right now.
This is honestly a leadership failure at the company and battalion level. Hazing cases like these are normally handled at the battalion level. It appears that the Commanding General did not have much confidence that his subordinate commanders could properly resolve these problems at their level. I would imagine that the commanders of 2/7, 3/7, 3rd Tracks and 7th Marines are glowing Kelvin hot right now.
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rhanzlikusaf
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I didn't really think of anything to add at the time I but thought some people might enjoy it on the site, I'll make sure to add something next time. Thanks for you help.@rhanzlikusaf -
It makes the board slightly more interesting to read and interact with if you add a thought or opinion on the story.
Simply posting a link and moving on is almost as lame as posting a poll.
It would appear that the General has a hardon for stopping the tradition walking the gauntlet and “pinning” new rank or blood stripes.
I kinda sorta see his point. I nearly failed a PFT the day after I made Lance Corporal because my arms were so bruised up I could barely do pull-ups.
That said, I got as far as the paragraph below and had to stop after reading what I have bolded.
I think the General may be taking this a bit too far and making up his own rules as he goes along.
The alleged hazing has included “outright physical assault” as well as forced alcohol consumption, forced haircuts and making Marines do fitness exercises for not knowing certain information, according to an email that the division commander, Maj. Gen. Eric Smith, wrote to all 1st Division commanders and sergeants major in July.
Just that right there would have been fine. You don't need to have an in depth opinion, or a source backed essay, or anything else like that. Just something that lets us know why you posted it.
"I saw this story, and I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I'm interested in hearing the opinions of the other members here."
The flip side to the argument is that infantry (or any combat MOS) Marines should also be held to a higher standard when they break the rules, and rules are currently in place from this type of activity happening. While I am all for physical activities as a form of punishment (read as pushups, carrying heavy weights, etc), with certain caveats, and "earning your bloodstripe", there needs to exist a line and forcing someone to drink alcohol certainly crosses that. Seven (7) reports of hazing in a week, with each report having to go to Congress as a result of the 2017 NDAA, I would image the CG wants this type of activity to cease and desist.
Devildoc
Verified Military
Damn, I am just seeing this for the first time today. I hate it when work, family, and school get in the way of my interwebs activities .
I just took that quote at face value, "forced alcohol consumption," as in the story. I certainly get the peer pressure. In both cases it's wrong (having been with a doc who told a parent their daughter was dead from alcohol overdose during a pledge initiation). I am particularly prickly about alcohol-related events (I am not a totaller; I have been know to slam a beer or 20, along with booze).
I think hazing is like defining 'art'....hard to define it, we know it when we see it; and a slippery slope between Mona Lisa and dogs playing poker (which I love).
I guess I should have spoken up when tab spec4s were walking on me while doing flutter kicks reciting the Ranger creed, etc....
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That was not very nice of them.
Topkick
Verified Military
I can't imagine a tight knit military unit without some degree of hazing....ur i mean initiation.
rhanzlikusaf
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My 1STSGT always said something like that.
Topkick
Verified Military
Reminds me of the scene in Lone Survivor when they made the newbie get up and entertain. Nobody got hurt but he had to show his ass a little. Stuff like that is fun and harmless but still a rite of passage. One of my units made the FNGs dress up like the Village People and sing one of their songs. It wasn't always a pleasant experience.
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Embrace the suck.
TLDR20
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This is an interesting case. To me the difference between a smoke session, a beat down and hazing always would have to do with the purpose and the state of the individual inflicting the punishment.
I saw an instructor(who was probably drunk at the time, and later had his tabbed pulled) make a dude low crawl 200 meters across gravel and hot asphalt for an unsecured canteen. That wasn’t constructive, it didn’t lead to increased esprit de corps, it just made me and many others realize that no one was actually looking out for my well being or safety while I was in SOPC hold, and the instructors could literally do whatever they wanted. It was a good motivator to get the fuck out of there though.
A better example of a similar thing that did work and wasn’t hazing was when a SOPC instructor found an unsecured locker and made the stud carry all of his stuff everywhere he went for 5 days, PX, formation, everywhere. He never left his locker unsecured after that. That wasn’t sadistic punishment, but rather a corrective action. Blood wings/stripes/tabs and such are a grey area as to me that does indeed carry a mystique and welcomes the recipient into the brotherhood.
I saw an instructor(who was probably drunk at the time, and later had his tabbed pulled) make a dude low crawl 200 meters across gravel and hot asphalt for an unsecured canteen. That wasn’t constructive, it didn’t lead to increased esprit de corps, it just made me and many others realize that no one was actually looking out for my well being or safety while I was in SOPC hold, and the instructors could literally do whatever they wanted. It was a good motivator to get the fuck out of there though.
A better example of a similar thing that did work and wasn’t hazing was when a SOPC instructor found an unsecured locker and made the stud carry all of his stuff everywhere he went for 5 days, PX, formation, everywhere. He never left his locker unsecured after that. That wasn’t sadistic punishment, but rather a corrective action. Blood wings/stripes/tabs and such are a grey area as to me that does indeed carry a mystique and welcomes the recipient into the brotherhood.
Topkick
Verified Military
Devildoc
Verified Military
In Navy boot camp we did not have foot lockers but we had real wall lockers. One guy did not lock his, the RDC (Recruit Division Commander--i.e., DI/DS) made him throw everything into his seabag and carry it all day, every day for a few days. At night, he had to sleep with it. It was effective.
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Bootcamp 1989' San Diego, CA
A recruit next to me got under the covers before getting the command "sleep". D.I. lost his shit and asked 'why'?
"recruit was cold, sir!"
D.I. had as all get out of our racks with our extra wool blankets in hand, we then 'carefully' placed said blanket on top of "Private Frigid" (as he was known for the rest of bootcamp). He was told if any of those blankets were removed overnight, he would 'pay' in the morning. Must of dehydrated the shit out of him, as he fell out of a run the next day.
Certainly not the worst I have saw, but one of the most memorable.
A recruit next to me got under the covers before getting the command "sleep". D.I. lost his shit and asked 'why'?
"recruit was cold, sir!"
D.I. had as all get out of our racks with our extra wool blankets in hand, we then 'carefully' placed said blanket on top of "Private Frigid" (as he was known for the rest of bootcamp). He was told if any of those blankets were removed overnight, he would 'pay' in the morning. Must of dehydrated the shit out of him, as he fell out of a run the next day.
Certainly not the worst I have saw, but one of the most memorable.
HAHAHA
During a pre patrol inspection I discovered one of my Marines forgot water. No big deal, our FOB was small and I sent him to go get a few bottles so he could fill up in Camelback. When said Marine did not return for nearly 20 mins I sent his team leader to go find him. Lance Coolio thought he could duck into the MWR tent and call his girl back home for a few mins. After we got back, I made said Marine move water cases from the water supply point on our FOB to our hooch area. At first he was moving a case at a time, then he grabbed his pack and realized he could move two cases at a time. After a few rounds I'm about to tell him we have enough water when I see him serving as a ground guide to a fork truck. He tracked down a KBR employee and had him move an entire pallet to our area. I couldn't even be mad at that point. He learned his lesson and devolved some strategic thinking skills along the way. It was a win for everyone.
