Another Run on Ammo: DHS's New 900 Million Round Purchase

And we are indeed Rome before the fall........

Rome was burned by it's enemies more then it was from within.

I hate the "America is Rome" argument/ example but it just isn't true or rather it oversimplifies Rome's mark on history and radically overstates America's. For America to equal Rome we'd have to essentially conquer 2 of the following 4: European Union, India, Russia, and China and we'd have the next 200 or so years to do it; we'd also have to take the additional steps of forcing a religion upon them and destroying or "modernizing" their cities to conform to American standards across the board. Razing buildings, temples, redesigning roads and the layout of the city, etc.

But the example is apt because of history. Most nations/ countries/ empires aren't "fortunate" to have a clean death like the Persians or Kwarazmians wherein a relatively strong and united nation was utterly crushed by outside forces. Rome, the Crusader States, the Mongols, Chinese dynasties, the Greek city-states, Alexander's Empire, and the Byzantines all "enjoyed" serious internal dissention and fighting prior to outside entities administering the killing blow. In every case trade was weak, the masses were angry, the people and government divided, and their armies weakened by it all; this all allowed for outside forces to get their plunder on. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find numerous European and Muslim examples over the course of the last millenia or so.

If you look at successful revolutions over the last 200 years, the same can be said for the above except that internal forces (the people or the army) deposed the government.

The English victory at Agincourt was in large part due to internal weaknesses with the French monarchy. The English failed to capitalize on their crushing victory and the French lived to fight another day.

To a lesser extent we could also cite the indigenous Americans who had they united against the Spanish would have destroyed the conquistadors. The Spanish capitalized on existing enmity within the various tribes/ people to win allies and weaken their opponents. In America tribes turned against other tribes and we used that to our advantage, decreasing the wars by a decade or two. Smallpox helped but Central and South America would be very different with or without it.

Dragging out the comparisons to Rome sounds great but most people tune it out; only a few will seize upon it. History has a long list of nations and empires which died as a result of their internal issues weakening them to the point that other forces could act upon them.
 
Here's the other thing... I just added up all that ammo. That order is for over 63 million rounds over 4 years. Unless there are other orders out there, I'm not sure where this 750 million figure is coming from. Again, I'm not saying that I'm not concerned that the Agriculture Dept needs millions of rounds to protect cattle and other food supplies (things that make me go hmmmm) but I'm still not seeing the quantities that are being reported.
I just went back and tried to pull the original press release citing the original 450 million round order.

I seem to remember that being a cut and dried case. At no time was there ever a question as to the validity of it.

Now that article seems to have been pulled as well.

Take a look: http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/st...ement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp

That link is from Free's post originally here:
https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/ammo-prices.13759/#post-208724
 
Frankly there is no historical reference we can use to compare the modern interconnected world and its current problems/issues. It borders on the ridiculous to look at the Roman Empire for advice.

What we do now (the United States) in order to retain our seat as the uber-superpower of the world is what other countries of this era will utilize in the future if they find themseleves in a similar situation. Either the U.S. fails in the next 10 years (unlikely) or we get our shit together. But we have to give it time. We can't expect results right off the bat. Saying Obama's policies have led us here is demented. If in 4-8 years from now our country is utter shit. Then we can blame Obama. But last I checked, this shit sort of started with Bush. Yeah I'm sure I sound like a liberal.. but I tell it how it is.

Countries (not just Gov'ts) fail when they resort to isolationist policies. I shudder to think what would happen if Ron Paul ever became president. Every nation is connected to each other and there is no going back. What happens 5,000 miles away in one country can impact us negatively. This didn't apply to these "empires" of the past. We need to stop looking at them for examples, we need to make the new standard. And an open and armed revolution is not the answer unless this country succumbs to tyranny or fascism.

Just know Looon, in 20 years if your civil war did occur I'll be on the other end of that battlefield.
 
But back to the original point of this DHS ammo purchase: holy fn shit, wtf do you need all that ammo for?!

Is it possible that the bulk of this ammo goes to the Coast Guard as they are part of DHS now?
 
The internet "Way Back" machine finds nothing either. Maybe it wasn't out long enough to be archived.

But back to the original point of this DHS ammo purchase: holy fn shit, wtf do you need all that ammo for?!

Is it possible that the bulk of this ammo goes to the Coast Guard as they are part of DHS now?
The Coast Guard needs more ammo than the entire US Navy and the entire US Marine Corps at a time when they are deployed in two simultaneous wars? Doesn't seem adequate as an explanation. But hey what do I know.
 
I just went back and tried to pull the original press release citing the original 450 million round order.
I seem to remember that being a cut and dried case. At no time was there ever a question as to the validity of it.
Now that article seems to have been pulled as well.
Take a look: http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/rescue?SourceUrl=http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp
That link is from Free's post originally here:
https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/ammo-prices.13759/#post-208724

I found it. It isn't a matter of validity. The press release is from the company that won the contract.
The problem is, people don't read. This contract was also over a four year time span and states that 450 million rounds was the POTENTIAL amount. That's the absolute maximum that could be purchased, not how much was purchased.
http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25280&item=124123
 
I found it. It isn't a matter of validity. The press release is from the company that won the contract.
The problem is, people don't read. This contract was also over a four year time span and states that 450 million rounds was the POTENTIAL amount. That's the absolute maximum that could be purchased, not how much was purchased.
http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25280&item=124123


Great find, here is the initial order amount:
ATK (NYSE: ATK) announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.


...4 years, 450 million rounds. That wouldn't be 63 million per year, that would be 112 million rounds per year.

So now all we need is the press release for the new, larger order for 750 million, and the picture will be a little more complete. It would also be good to see how long that 750 million is spread out over.
 
Great find, here is the initial order amount:
ATK (NYSE: ATK) announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.
4 years, 450 million rounds. I see where you get 63 million rounds (per year).
So now all we need is the press release for the new, larger order for 750 million, and the picture will be a little more complete.
No, that isn't where I got the 63 million. I got that by adding up the second four year contract. The one that everyone claims is for 750 million. I left a link to the PDF. It's 91 pages but only the first 24 are ammo numbers. Add 'em up.
 
OK, I follow.

I got 67,216,000 rounds- basically the same number you did, which tells me I 'm now looking at the same thing you are...
 
63 million rounds (or 67 million or whatever) is still a buttload of ammo, but nowhere near the 750 million to 900 million initially being reported.

I'm still keeping my eyes peeled for more credible sources to back up the larger purchase numbers, and even sent a few emails just to find out.
 
Yeah, I'd sure like to know where that came from. Paul Joseph Watson of prisonplanet.com has a video embedded in his article about this. Yesterday the video title matched the article title with the "750 million" rounds. I challenged Alex Jones on Twitter to show me where that number came from as he was spreading this article around. He didn't reply and today the video is changed to "hundreds of millions" which is still wrong.

Dig dig dig

ETA: JBS I'm sure I probably missed a line item or something.
 
That's really cool that you challenged Alex Jones on that.:thumbsup: I like that.
 
Well...


Now they are either F*****'ng with the conspiracy theorists, or else the controversy drew unwanted attention which has now resulted in classification and redaction.

As much as I'd like to think it's a game being played, redactions don't get made for shits and giggles:

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=4c35c09c9315981b2f82beee2fc6629d

We are now in the dark. Probably not the best outcome.

Dame, looks like that'll be the last time we'll get a glimpse at real numbers.
 
Yep, I saw that. Not sure about the redaction but someone out there was making a whole lot of noise about numbers that either didn't add up (literally) or were non-issues from the get-go. Another article cropped up about the SSA buying ammo. "Why are they buying 174K rounds of .357?" Um, maybe because their budget was cut. Previous years' purchases show 209K rounds. Turns out the SSA arms at least 39 sites of the Inspector General's office around the country.

We'll see if future orders are left open or not.
 
Yeah 200k rounds not significant, but the standing order of up to 450 million that still exists and is an open order is significant and bears the watching of concerned citizens.

If ammo purchases for the DHS start getting classified, that is far worse...
 
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