Case Study #3: Rules of Engagement

[Rabid Badger]

Detain. Citizens arrest.

The rules changed guys....he has AQ propaganda on his person and PID'ed.....

Here:

USA PATRIOT Act
Government is legitimately charged with defending life, liberty, and
property against both domestic and foreign predators.

These soldiers have a 'responsibility' to detain this guy.

:2c:

 

[QC]

A citizens arrest? I'm not sure about the US law but here you cannot arrest on suspicion. Bad ju ju if you do.

 

[arizonaguide]

Excellent, Razor! Thanks.
Positive ID as alQuaida...DETAIN. Not as a citizens arrest, but under authority of detaining an enemy combatant on American Soil under the Patriot Act.
Hand over to FBI, or perhaps better to call your CO, hand over to your own Military Intelligence, and let them be involved with the FBI.

‘‘Enemy combatants,’’ said the Court, are either lawful—
for example, the regular army of a belligerent country—or unlawful—
for example, terrorists. When lawful combatants are captured, they are
POWs. As POWs, they cannot be tried (except for war crimes); they must
be repatriated after hostilities are over; and they have to provide only their
name, rank, and serial number if interrogated.
Unlawful combatants are different. When unlawful combatants are captured,
they can be tried by a military tribunal. That’s what happened to
the Nazi saboteurs in Quirin.

My question is this: What are the MOS of myself and my buddies. Am I trained in Counter Intelligence such that it would be appropriate to follow, investigate, and report? Even so, if I had been drinking it would probably be more appropriate to go ahead and detain, and let the "big boys" decide how they want to play/flip him, if at all.
My job is to NOT let a confirmed PID alQuaida terrorist get away completely.

 

[pardus]

Read my last post for a serious reality check.

Guys, seriously:reality check. This guy is standing on a curb, waiting for a cab. On the basis of a phone call, even to 911, the NYPD does not have the resources to respond in time to apprehend this guy, let alone conduct a hasty surveillance to later "ensnare" him. Thats if they take you seriously. And what do you think the response time for the FBI or Homeland inSecurity is, especially after office hours close at 5pm? To think that you are gonna track down an Arab guy in NYC (pop. 8.2 MILLION PEOPLE) off the basis of a description, or a cab number is pure fantasy. Its closing time, his glass has been picked up off the bar and put in the dishwasher (as if a print would do anything either) and Im pretty sure that even IF he used a credit card, which is unlikely, it probably wouldnt have his real name on it. Soooooooooooo I may be mistaken here, but I believe that the question isnt calling for a "call the police immediately" answer, but something more along the lines of a direct action response.

 

[arizonaguide]

In light of the new info I would calls the cops immediatley and tell them I have a terrorist acting in a manner I feel is a danger to the public and they need to be here NOW!

Then I would shadow the guy until the cops got him or if he was going to get away i.e. in a taxi I would try to physically stop him.

I wouldn't attack him, but I feel physically detaining him is legit under the circumstances :2c:

Once the cops FBI get him they can be smart and use him for bait etc... my job is to see they get onto him.

Agreed! I just wonder if it might be better to call your CO and try to get your own Intel folks involved, and let THEM detain him further, and THEY deal with the FBI (or local cops). Maybe call the CO (or 1st SGT?) and let HIM make the further decision? If I do detain him, where do I do this? Am I going to bring him back in the bar? Take him to the base? Police station?

I think I want my Intel guys ASAP! Then let them make the decisions regarding him as an "enemy combatant", especially since I "detained" him under "military authority" on a "Positive ID"("enemy combatant" as per RB's post). I want my "chain of command" to back me up ASAP! I think I'm taking him to the base in the first non-arab driven cab my buddy can flag down, and calling the 1st SGT to meet me with some intel guys at the gate. They can decide how to proceed from there. Positive ID, and all.

 

[pardus]

I'm pretty sure you would have no 'military authourity' unless there is a state of emergency, etc...

It would have to be done as a civilian, the military has nothing to do with this, no calls to CO etc... prob tell you to fuck off anyway.
This is a police matter not military.

:2c:

Agreed! I just wonder if it might be better to call your CO and try to get your own Intel folks involved, and let THEM detain him further, and THEY deal with the FBI (or local cops). Maybe call the CO (or 1st SGT?) and let HIM make the further decision? If I do detain him, where do I do this? Am I going to bring him back in the bar? Take him to the base? Police station?

I think I want my Intel guys ASAP! Then let them make the decisions regarding him as an "enemy combatant", especially since I "detained" him under "military authority" on a "Positive ID"("enemy combatant" as per RB's post). I want my "chain of command" to back me up ASAP! I think I'm taking him to the base in the first non-arab driven cab my buddy can flag down, and calling the 1st SGT to meet me with some intel guys at the gate. They can decide how to proceed from there. Positive ID, and all.

 

[pardus]

If I could get away with it, I'd like to tie the fucker to a post and kick him in the balls really fucking hard, then hide in the shadows watching to ensure he doesn't escape, then when the police get there, melt away into the night.

 

[Marauder06]

If I could get away with it, I'd like to tie the fucker to a post and kick him in the balls really fucking hard, then hide in the shadows watching to ensure he doesn't escape, then when the police get there, melt away into the night.

LOL

/////


The fundamental flaw in this storyline is of course the PID angle; AQ doesn't wear uniforms and as far as I know doesn't have any formal ID, so PIDing them is usually somewhat difficult. To me though, if you claim to be AQ then you are AQ, this isn't like wearing a shirt that says "we will not be silent" in Arabic or wondering aloud where the safest place on a place to sit is. As far as I'm concerned, if you say you're AQ, you're AQ, and you have to live with the consequences of that affiliation.

Now, I wonder what those consequences will be...

 

[Olive Drab]

You'll be running into all sorts of illegal detention laws if you restrain this guy. I do not see our military authority on this soil without some higherup approval to act accordingly. Short of landing yourself in jail, its best to call the police, keep a safe distance while maintaining SA on this guy.

 

[car]

You'll be running into all sorts of illegal detention laws if you restrain this guy. I do not see our military authority on this soil without some higherup approval to act accordingly.

Yeah, it's called the Posse Comitatus Act. That's exactly how the ACLU would drive the wedge while defending the guy, if any Service Member "apprehended" him on U.S. soil. Don't know if they'd win (prolly so, since it's old, pretty much inviolable federal law), but the litigation would be long, painful and expensive - for some loud talking asshole at closing time?

 

[JJ sloan]

Yeah, it's called the Posse Comitatus Act. That's exactly how the ACLU would drive the wedge while defending the guy, if any Service Member "apprehended" him on U.S. soil. Don't know if they'd win (prolly so, since it's old, pretty much inviolable federal law), but the litigation would be long, painful and expensive - for some loud talking asshole at closing time?

Exactly! I would also add that the soldiers have been drinking... making the situation much more susceptable to scrutiny.

 

[0699]

I'd laugh at him and try to find somewhere else to continue drinking.

He's probably (99.9999%) a poser; to a certain element of society being "AQ" is cool, just like being a "SEAL", "SF", or "Recon" is cool in other communities.

I've been drinking.
My friends have been drinking.
Nothing good will come out of trying to detain him.
As a member of the military I have no authority on US soil unless specifically directed otherwise by my COC.

Plus, laughing at him will piss him off. If he gets pissed enough to swing, THEN I call the cops & swear out a warrant for assault against him. :)

 

[moobob]

I take my original statements back. I would call the CIA instead of the FBI. That should do the trick.

 

[car]

I take my original statements back. I would call the CIA instead of the FBI. That should do the trick.

Are you trying for cross=thread points?;)

 

[moobob]

Are you trying for cross=thread points?;)

hahaha. If we can expedite his departure out of the country before Jan 20th that terrorist should be good to go.

 

[arizonaguide]

Do we automatically consider alQuieda as "enemy combatants" ?

So, is he a Positively Identified "enemy combatant" or not?

Check out Razor Bagdad's link, (which appears to base the situation similar to the Nazi Saboteurs)...and it would seem to me that I can detain him (even as a citizen), and turn him over to Military Intelligence or FBI, who will then work with the the Attorney General to eventually get him (back to Military Jurisdiction?) to a Military Tribunal, correct?

But, right now he's standing on the curb, so immediate action is needed.

One way or the other I'm NOT (even as a citizen) letting a confirmed PID alQuaida terrorist get away completely.
Detain, or Follow? I'm doing ONE of them.

I'm POSITIVE that I have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy.

Following him is more risky than just detaining him, because you risk losing him completely.
You have to detain him somehow.








Here's the interesting related Nazi Saboteur history link:
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/nazi/nazi.htm

 

[pardus]

Plus, laughing at him will piss him off. If he gets pissed enough to swing, THEN I call the cops & swear out a warrant for assault against him. :)

Just gave me a great idea, get one of my mates to punch me in the eye, then beat the shit of of AQ guy, call the cops and say he attacked me! Perfect! :cool:

Not that i'd ever do that of course, that's illegal ;)

I'm POSITIVE that I have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy.

Why?

 

[arizonaguide]

I'm POSITIVE that I have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy.

Why?

Original post states that as part of the scenario. "so you have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy."

OK, time for another case study.

Here's how this works- I post a situation, anyone who wants to can make responses in this thread, the thread evolves over time based on your responses, and at the end I put it all together into a little story for your entertainment. Example: http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5689

Please note the disclaimer that this is pure fiction and except where specifically indicated otherwise, NONE OF THE STUFF IN THESE CASE STUDIES REALLY HAPPENED.

Here we go:

You and two of your buddies are having drinks at the bar of an upscale restaurant in downtown New York City. Having just returned from a deployment to Iraq, you're noisy but not disruptive. When you go to settle your tab, the bartender tells you that one of the other patrons who overheard part of your conversations left $100 with the bartender to cover your tab, along with the note "Thank you for your service." Since your tab only came to $30, you do what any Joe would- you sit down to drink $70 more. After all, you want your anonymous benefactor to get his money's worth, don't you?

As you are finally getting ready to leave, one of the few remaining patrons approaches you. You think he's another well-wisher, but it soon becomes apparent he is anything but. He asks if you are soldiers; you say yes. He asks if you have been in Iraq; you reply in the affirmative. His English isn't perfect, but it's clear he's a fan of Osama bin Laden and is not a fan of yours. He curses the three of you loudly in Arabic, spits on the floor, and identifies himself as a member of al Qaeda. He says something about his great leader, al Zarqawi (who at the time of this case study is still alive), and before any of you can respond he walks outside, where you can see him standing at the curb, waiting for a taxi.

Your two mates want to follow this self-identified al Qaeda individual outside; one of them wants to "kill that al Qaeda son of a bitch." One points out that Iraq your commander told you that you were allowed to engage and destroy individuals you positively identified as members of al Qaeda, regardless of the situation. Your other friend adds that as Soldiers, you have the obligation to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States, foreign and domestic," so you have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy.

so

1) can you do anything to the self-identified al Qaeda guy out front on the curb?

2) what do you do?

The only sure way to NOT lose him is to take him from the curb.
Even following him you have the chance to lose him. If he pays cash(of course with a cab), the FBI will have a "drop location" and a "description"...so he could be gone unless you stay in physical contact. Rather than get in his cab, or try to follow and risk losing him, I think we take him. We have to. Detain him in the bar kitchen, call the First Sgt!

The minute he asks if you are soldiers, and because he is a PID enemy combatant, he made this a military matter. Hope the First Sgt isn't to pissed when he shows up with the intel guys. What's the RIGHT answer Marauder?

 

[Totentanz]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, that's the friend's opinion, not a stiplated fact.

 

[arizonaguide]

I have to grab him (now) or risk losing him. Obligation to at least apprehend!

Good point, unclear to me (not in quotes, but seperated from the statement only by a comma).
Marauder, is that Obligation from you as a scenario "given", or just the words of the drunken friend?

Actually, it doesn't really matter. I DO have "moral" obligation to grab him. (enemy combatant, assaulting soldiers, etc.)

I have to grab him (now) or risk losing him.
Freakin got the "moral" obligation to grab him, even if the "legal" part screws me.
That's why I'm calling First Sgt, and my intel guys, they'll call FBI (JAG?), or advise.
He's going in the system.

Save every bit of evidence including the spit.