Code Over Country by Matthew Cole

[Devildoc]

I would but I read it on my phone.

Yeah, no worries. Over the past 6, 7 months I have been gifted books and now my wife is casting shade at my pile, asking what I am going to do with them now that I have read them. I want to borrow, but not buy. We should have a book exchange. Maybe I will start a thread on that.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Author was is on Cleared Hot today. I’m listening before I buy the book.

There's a lot of things discussed on the first hour of this that I listened to that I just felt. Like a sting. As far as how Civilian Planners working at the DoD have not a damn clue about how their idiocy translates on the battlefield.

 

[ShamgarTheJudge]

There's a lot of things discussed on the first hour of this that I listened to that I just felt. Like a sting. As far as how Civilian Planners working at the DoD have not a damn clue about how their idiocy translates on the battlefield.

It makes me ashamed for ever feeling like my scheduling and dispatch departments were the worst desk jockeys on the planet. Nothing compares to what y’all deal and dealt with.

 

[Archangel27]

Anyone lend me this book when they are done???

Of course. Once I get the mailing straight from here, I would be glad to.

 

[ShamgarTheJudge]

After completing the Audible version of this book, this is what came to my mind. What a shame.

Rest in power, John Chapman and Logan Melgar.

 

[Topkick]

So this book is just fucking bananas.

Slabinski and the Chapman affair is one of the most embarrassing stories of inter service rivalry and “face saving” I have ever read about. The pattern of SEAL arrogance, even in the face of video evidence is just astounding to me.

The Melgar stuff made me sick to my stomach. I can’t even talk about it. Having worked with certain units in grey areas in certain places, I’m just glad this wasn’t me.

I’m overall not surprised. I’ve always called SEALs frat boys with guns. Their true code is “if you’re not cheating you’re not trying”. Which sounds cool until you have no collective integrity, and will skate by at every opportunity.

I’m no saint, I don’t think any real SOF guy is. But these guys were fucking awful.

@AWP thanks for the recommendation…..I guess

Pretty powerful post coming from a team guy. Although I was combat arms, most of us are obviously outside looking in at SOF, I''ll always appreciate what SOF does and brings to the table and I honestly hate to hear all this. But appreciate the honest perspective.

 

[Diddums]

Another podcast on Code over Country with former SF guys.

 

[BloodStripe]

I can’t tell you and if I did I would have to kill you. LOL
@BloodStripe I am no longer an Admin so I can say what I want, If you are not going to back up what you said, just leave.

I’m a validated user on this website. That is enough I need to say. You can choose to not believe what I’m saying, but others on here have seen authentic documentation showing where I’ve been or what I’ve done. Additionally there’s people on here who I’ve talked to on a certain network who can back me up and validate my authenticity. If it’s not already on the web I’m not going to post it as it isn’t my place to do.

 

[Polar Bear]

I’m a validated user on this website. That is enough I need to say. You can choose to not believe what I’m saying, but others on here have seen authentic documentation showing where I’ve been or what I’ve done. Additionally there’s people on here who I’ve talked to on a certain network who can back me up and validate my authenticity. If it’s not already on the web I’m not going to post it as it isn’t my place to do.

No shit Sherlock, guess who saw that paperwork Me.

 

[Kaldak]

I’m a validated user on this website. That is enough I need to say. You can choose to not believe what I’m saying, but others on here have seen authentic documentation showing where I’ve been or what I’ve done. Additionally there’s people on here who I’ve talked to on a certain network who can back me up and validate my authenticity. If it’s not already on the web I’m not going to post it as it isn’t my place to do.

I'm still not sure what is being said/not said.

Also, your CUT is Marine. Not SEAL. Your profile is blocked, so that is all I, or anyone else knows. I'm not staff, and sure wasn't when you verified, but a tag and CUT as is, doesn't tell me anything in terms of credibility on this subject or what you allud to vaguely.

My 2cents.

 

[BloodStripe]

No shit Sherlock, guess who saw that paperwork Me.

Cool so then you know where I’ve worked. At one point this forum took weight over trust where someone has been and what’s been validated but if that’s not where it is today, well I’m sorry to hear. Peace

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Cool so then you know where I’ve worked. At one point this forum took weight over trust where someone has been and what’s been validated but if that’s not where it is today, well I’m sorry to hear. Peace

I don’t think anyone is challenging your credentials, but in a book review thread that that references a book describing the failing of some pretty high level units, you say:

I guess if you want to know what it’s like there, either earn it through selection or get hired to work there.

the natural reaction from most members (including myself) is, “what do you mean by that”? What have you personally witnessed?

Are you refuting the stories of the book, are you agreeing? Is there a particular op that was referenced that you are not happy about how it is being discussed?

Your comment quoted above is pretty vague; surely you can add some type of context without violating any type of OPSEC/PERSEC ? Otherwise your post just sits there in neon, a statement without context, and then we get the back-and-forth stuff that gets us nowhere.

I mean honestly, if you are going to just make that one comment and leave it hanging, aren’t you are almost better off saying nothing at all?

 

[RackMaster]

 

[Teufel]

 

[AWP]

Low effort Photoshop, but we'll allow it.

 

[“The Old Man”]

Anyone lend me this book when they are done???

I will order and read it. Then bring it in July Brother.

 

[Teufel]

Low effort Photoshop, but we'll allow it.

It’s all the time it deserved!

 

[Archangel27]

I finished reading the book, and it's a doozy. In a way, it doesn't tell us a lot we don't know, but the little hidden nuggets that were kept out of the public eye until now were very illuminating.

While not laid as the ultimate cause, the high optempo of the GWOT definitely contributed to some of the issues that were later highlighted of lack of discipline.

Personally, what was the most disgusting for me was the anecdote that Bissonette and O'Neill were purposefully trying to position themselves as the man with the best shot at killing UBL. The crass commercialization that followed is perceived by the SEALs as a breach of their "omerta" as was referenced in this thread and in the book, but was stomach churning for me, personally. That combined with the no holds barred takedowns of Luttrell and Kyle's books were hard to read for me, having grown up being taught the Korengal Valley story as a case study.

I'm confident that change will happen and that there are way too many good men that aren't the focus of this book to force DEVGRU to case its colors, but the leadership that kept getting promoted and allowed to get away with indirect wrist slaps (Slabinski's "punishment" and Szymanski's rise in the ranks in particular come to mind) needs to have a hard look to see the dead weight that is around them.

The frustrating thing, and discussion point that I'm concerned about is when the organization that was set up by Marcinko to almost have its senior enlisted have absolute power compared to the officers, what should the better balance have been in your opinions? No organization is perfect, but it definitely seems that the lust for power and fame as well as seeing other SEALs ride their service to glory and riches set in motion its own self perpetuating cycle for the time being.

Just some thoughts from a reader and an outsider to the SOF community. I will say that this has been necessary for me but has stoked the fire for me to work harder and continue trying my best to provide the best advice I can here and in other units I may be able to join.

 

[Devildoc]

Just finished it. Echoing @Archangel27 , " it doesn't tell us a lot we don't know, but the little hidden nuggets that were kept out of the public eye until now were very illuminating." It's taken me a couple days to digest and ruminate on it.

The author's lack of experience with all things military shows a knowledge deficit (example, McRaven used 6 for the UBL raid because he had been a SEAL; no, it was because the other SMU was assigned to Iraq, and 6 was at the time assigned to AStan; etc.). Because of this he tends to draw conclusions that frame his narrative, not necessarily conclusions that were accurate.

That said, it's clear he had help from the inside. Some of the things he wrote about were either lies and making it up, or based on inside gossip. He doesn't strike me as the liar given the material, so I believe it's because he had help from the inside.

The events regarding Gallagher, Slabinski/Chapman were pretty egregious. How Gallagher came ot of this smelling like a rose does not speak well to the legal system; not to mention, how politicized the whole event became. The Melgar thing? That made me sick to my stomach.

Regarding Bissenette and O'Neil, I'll be honest, I read No East Day, I thought it was OK. But I think both are turds. I hate that NSW has become a cultural brand with books and movies, but when it comes to reading and watching, mea culpa. But I am not a SEAL groupie; I read and watch all sorts of military history.

I have mentioned I know/knew some SEALs. Almost everyone I know is out now. We were peers, and we're all old. Of the handful I know well, this narrative does not fit them, but for a couple it absolutely does.

 

[TLDR20]

Their selection process is their weakness imo.
Marchinko selected fan boys, who then developed a system designed to bring like minded individuals in.
The good ol boy network continues after separation/retirement with contracts or jobs provided.
So why change?

SOF isn't the only organization to try and hide misdeeds from prying eyes. Every organization does it.

I’m rereading this thread. This is the best post in it. They should be like Delta. They are the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, NOT SEAL Team 6. They should draw from all services, and all rates. There is a reason Delta is what it is, and it is the variety they choose from. I know they pull support people from both the regular navy and marine corps, but they should pull operators from there as well. I’m pretty sure, even 75’s JSOC element pulls from the whole army, not just Regiment.