Code Over Country by Matthew Cole

[Kraut783]

Not sure how I have missed this thread, I only had two incidents with Blue team in 2002....one, put the wrong fuel in our generator...the only generator we had....two, that was just a wedding party, not a enemy emplacement with anti-aircraft weapons....but, sure...call for fire.

 

[Devildoc]

I’m rereading this thread. This is the best post in it. They should be like Delta. They are the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, NOT SEAL Team 6. They should draw from all services, and all rates. There is a reason Delta is what it is, and it is the variety they choose from. I know they pull support people from both the regular navy and marine corps, but they should pull operators from there as well. I’m pretty sure, even 75’s JSOC element pulls from the whole army, not just Regiment.

A difference is, they still have a significant combat swimmer/VBSS mission, which is 'a' reason they still require their 'operators' (God how I hate that word) to be SEALs. But if they changed the model that after selection that future teammates go through combat dive, you can check that box.

The Delta model is extremely successful, and draws from the SAS model. And the SAS model? All SAS and SBS candidates go through the same selection and choose which unit after they make it.

 

[RackMaster]

A difference is, they still have a significant combat swimmer/VBSS mission, which is 'a' reason they still require their 'operators' (God how I hate that word) to be SEALs. But if they changed the model that after selection that future teammates go through combat dive, you can check that box.

The Delta model is extremely successful, and draws from the SAS model. And the SAS model? All SAS and SBS candidates go through the same selection and choose which unit after they make it.

At least one Squadron in JTF2 has a very similar role. They started drawing from all branches, a lot of guys already combat dive, clearance dive qualified or SAR Techs. Some of the best swimmers out there. Now the rest of CANSOF is used as a stepping stone into JTF2 and they draw from all services. I can't see why DEVGRU couldn't do the same. I'm sure the majority of their applicants would still be SEALs but they are probably losing out on a lot of potential "operators".

 

[Devildoc]

At least one Squadron in JTF2 has a very similar role. They started drawing from all branches, a lot of guys already combat dive, clearance dive qualified or SAR Techs. Some of the best swimmers out there. Now the rest of CANSOF is used as a stepping stone into JTF2 and they draw from all services. I can't see why DEVGRU couldn't do the same. I'm sure the majority of their applicants would still be SEALs but they are probably losing out on a lot of potential "operators".

I know why they do it: they are paranoid control freaks who are my-way-or-the-highway and see themselves as ultimate Protectors of the Trident.

But I still maintain the Delta way (and what you describe) gets better 'operators' (God how I hate that word) and teammates.

 

[TLDR20]

I know why they do it: they are paranoid control freaks who are my-way-or-the-highway and see themselves as ultimate Protectors of the Trident.

But I still maintain the Delta way (and what you describe) gets better 'operators' (God how I hate that word) and teammates.

It is SEAL arrogance. (Not so)Deep down they don’t respect anyone who hasn’t been to BUD/s.

 

[Devildoc]

It is SEAL arrogance. (Not so)Deep down they don’t respect anyone who hasn’t been to BUD/s.

I agree with both.

 

[Gunz]

It is SEAL arrogance. (Not so)Deep down they don’t respect anyone who hasn’t been to BUD/s.

We've been given plenty of examples of this since Anaconda. And it tends to have fatal consequences to people on our side.

But I still maintain the Delta way (and what you describe) gets better 'operators' (God how I hate that word) and teammates.

Well...they write books, too--Greer, Blaber, Haney, Lamb, Beckwith, Comstock, etc. But they don't murder or sodomize fellow SOF personnel.

 

[Devildoc]

Well...they write books, too--Greer, Blaber, Haney, Lamb, Beckwith, Comstock, etc. But they don't murder or sodomize fellow SOF personnel.

Yes, they do. But aside from Haney (to a lesser degree Greer) the books have been aboveboard and ethically written. And true, they stay clean. Command climate and expectations are important.

 

[TLDR20]

Yes, they do. But aside from Haney (to a lesser degree Greer) the books have been aboveboard and ethically written. And true, they stay clean. Command climate and expectations are important.

They also ruthlessly kick people out. Those people tend to land in good assignments, but they are still kicked to the curb…

 

[Devildoc]

They also ruthlessly kick people out. Those people tend to land in good assignments, but they are still kicked to the curb…

They absolutely will. The unit will boot a person quickly.

 

[Marauder06]

Yes, they do. But aside from Haney (to a lesser degree Greer) the books have been aboveboard and ethically written. And true, they stay clean. Command climate and expectations are important.

It what ways were they aboveboard? I don't know about the others but Greer's book wasn't cleared AFAIK.

 

[Gunz]

This whole SEAL thing should never have happened. The Navy should’ve stuck to the frogman/UDT role of WW2 and the Department of the Navy should’ve relegated the development of a Naval special operation land warfare element to the Marines. Just my armchair 20-20 hindsight opinion…but it’s kinda why marines in general were invented.

But instead we end up with this egomaniacal puff monster sailor bashing around inland—never mind littoral—creating mayhem both on and off duty…because he’s been anointed.

 

[Devildoc]

It what ways were they aboveboard? I don't know about the others but Greer's book wasn't cleared AFAIK.

Haney's book was written out of the family and was not vetted if I recall. He was PNG'd right quickly. Greer's book, the unit didn't have any issue with, and it got hot hung up in vetting and he published it anyway. I'm working off no caffeine and memory so I might be a little fuzzy. A couple of the guys said that his book was factually correct regarding their roles in the events Greer described.

So far it seems like when a Delta guy writes a book, he doesn't lie, he doesn't throw anyone under the bus, and there appears to be some level of integrity.

Lone Survivor, Killing Bin Laden, almost any book about Takur Ghar, not only have they been factually incorrect, and refuted, But it seems that that community just kind of shrugs it off. When a book is written to counter the narrative in those books, they circle the wagons.

Anyhoo, just my perspective.

 

[AWP]

They also ruthlessly kick people out. Those people tend to land in good assignments, but they are still kicked to the curb…

A former Delta guy said on the Shawn Ryan Show he always had that twinge of fear every time he badged into the building. If you didn't have a beep/ green light then you knew that was your last day.

He also mentioned that they can make a mistake only once. Repeat the same mistake and you're gone. The unit is a pressure cooker.

 

[Devildoc]

A former Delta guy said on the Shawn Ryan Show he always had that twinge of fear every time he badged into the building. If you didn't have a beep/ green light then you knew that was your last day.

He also mentioned that they can make a mistake only once. Repeat the same mistake and you're gone. The unit is a pressure cooker.

I believe that was Tom Satterly.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

This whole SEAL …

But instead we end up with this egomaniacal puff monster sailor bashing around inland—never mind littoral—creating mayhem both on and off duty…because he’s been anointed.

To my final day I will consider Dick Marcinko and Big Navy’s inability to rein him in as the #1 reason for this. There had been plenty of “there I was…” books prior to his, but Dick’s was the first I recall that also made it “cool” to flaunt the rules and ridiculed anyone who tried to enforce them as a pussy and not committed to the security of the Nation.

 

[Devildoc]

To my final day I will consider Dick Marcinko and Big Navy’s inability to rein him in as the #1 reason for this. There had been plenty of “there I was…” books prior to his, but Dick’s was the first I recall that also made it “cool” to flaunt the rules and ridiculed anyone who tried to enforce them as a pussy and not committed to the security of the Nation.

I met through a buddy of mine (SEAL, we went through field med together) Master Chief Dennis Chalker. He was a SEAL, and a plank owner in ST6 and did the 'red cell' thing. He also wrote a book in the 90s (One Perfect Op). Over some years he was a bit of a mentor to me as we stayed in touch, super humble guy, very down to earth. He talked about how unconventional, abrasive, and difficult Marcinko was, and also said he no one was really surprised when he got in trouble and leadership was looking for ways to get him gone. He also said that Marcinko was 100% loyal to 'his guys', but rarely to people above him, especially if they were not in the community. That was about as negative as MC Chalker got.

Marcinko was definitely a polarizing figure; he was either loved or loathed, not a lot of middle ground. To be fair, Beckwith was kinda, sorta like him getting Delta off the ground; however, I do not recall reading anything that Beckwith had done that was flat-out illegal. I think it would be an amazing academic paper to see someone compare and contrast the culture of each organization and Marcinko and Beckwith. Beckwith seemed to establish standards and boundaries, rules, whereas Marcinko was more personality-driven, a cult of personality where rules were subjective and subjectively enforced.

In grad school I had a class in organizational leadership and I think I missed an opportunity to compare/contrast when we discussed toxic leadership and organizations.

 

[Gunz]

To my final day I will consider Dick Marcinko and Big Navy’s inability to rein him in as the #1 reason for this. There had been plenty of “there I was…” books prior to him, but Dick’s was the first I recall that also made it “cool” to flaunt the rules and ridiculed anyone who tried to enforce them as a pussy and not committed to the security of the Nation.

I have to agree with that. Marcinko was the template for SEAL misbehavior and arrogance.

I interacted with a number of SEAL/UDT guys when I was a range NCO at Little Creek. Our quonset hut was right next to theirs. This was ‘72, post Vietnam, and most of us—Marines and Navy—were combat vets. And they were decent, down-to-earth dudes. Sure, there was good-natured inter-service smack talk, but they were guys you could have a beer with without feeling inferior. Their swagger was no greater than ours.

 

[Marauder06]

I was in JSOC when Greer's book came out. He was PNG'd by his unit (which I was never in, or otherwise affiliated with). He even admitted to such:

"Every one of us was dubbed persona non grata by our former organization," Greer told U.S. News in 2015.

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...dalton-fury-elite-commando-turned-author-dies

Haney's book was written out of the family and was not vetted if I recall. He was PNG'd right quickly. Greer's book, the unit didn't have any issue with, and it got hot hung up in vetting and he published it anyway. I'm working off no caffeine and memory so I might be a little fuzzy. A couple of the guys said that his book was factually correct regarding their roles in the events Greer described.

So far it seems like when a Delta guy writes a book, he doesn't lie, he doesn't throw anyone under the bus, and there appears to be some level of integrity.

Lone Survivor, Killing Bin Laden, almost any book about Takur Ghar, not only have they been factually incorrect, and refuted, But it seems that that community just kind of shrugs it off. When a book is written to counter the narrative in those books, they circle the wagons.

Anyhoo, just my perspective.

I don't know about the others but I think his unit did have some sort of issue with Greer's book because they PNG'd him over it.

I read his book a long time ago and frankly don't remember anything about it. It probably does contain a lot of truth... but that makes it worse IMO.

It's not that hard to get clearance to write books. We did it with Violence of Action. But too many people in our community see the dollar signs and try to take the easy way through the process. $6M might be an acceptable consolation prize for not being allowed to come to the unit picnics.

 

[Teufel]

A difference is, they still have a significant combat swimmer/VBSS mission, which is 'a' reason they still require their 'operators' (God how I hate that word) to be SEALs. But if they changed the model that after selection that future teammates go through combat dive, you can check that box.

The Delta model is extremely successful, and draws from the SAS model. And the SAS model? All SAS and SBS candidates go through the same selection and choose which unit after they make it.

Pretty sure Recon Marines, Raiders, Navy EOD, divers and most of AFSOC all check that box. All of these communities are represented in JSOC outside of the unit in question.