Code Over Country by Matthew Cole

[Devildoc]

Pretty sure Recon Marines, Raiders, Navy EOD, divers and most of AFSOC all check that box. All of these communities are represented in JSOC outside of the unit in question.

Yes, they are. And how much decisiveness and bad rep in the press or military community?

 

[GOTWA]

A former Delta guy said on the Shawn Ryan Show he always had that twinge of fear every time he badged into the building. If you didn't have a beep/ green light then you knew that was your last day.

He also mentioned that they can make a mistake only once. Repeat the same mistake and you're gone. The unit is a pressure cooker.

I really liked that Podcast. Tom seems like a pretty good dude all things considered. Also paints that picture while they are the best dudes to have going into a fight, you're still just an ass in the seat at the end of the day. It's amazing how many of them fall off the wagon towards the end; Kyle Morgan, Chris Vansant, Tom Satterly, etc.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Big Navy used to require recruitment from Ranks. But then the GWOT happened and they expanded the mission set of NAVSPECWAR to land warfare for god knows what reason, I guess the Army didn't want to put up too much of a fight on that. They always had a land warfare component to what they do, but nothing like what it is today. SF has direct recruitment but the 18X pathway seems to have significantly higher attrition than SEALs do, maybe it doesn't but that's what it seemed like when I was in the Army. I know part of the BUD/S passrate supposedly came out of an investigation where classes were coming out with 20 graduates. And we've talked a few times about some of the subsequent investigations since. Don't think the course is easier, but I do wonder if they're passing more "completers" than they have historically.

I think the other reason for their direct recruitment pipeline is due to mission set being so different from the rest of the Navy does.

 

[AWP]

Big Navy used to require recruitment from Ranks. But then the GWOT happened and they expanded the mission set of NAVSPECWAR to land warfare for god knows what reason, I guess the Army didn't want to put up too much of a fight on that.

Your guess is wrong. Numerous folks of varying ranks all came out and said the same thing: JSOC "split" and Delta handled Iraq while DEVGRU handled Afghanistan. Part of that reason was Iraq and Delta's deployment cycle turned on its ear as a result of the heavy fighting from '04 on. Delta lacked the personnel to prosecute both wars, so splitting the units makes sense. Army Special Forces were heavily involved as were "vanilla" SEAL teams in Afghanistan. Maybe you recall that the SF Groups have a regional orientation and while some of that was broken for manpower reasons (7th Group/ Latin America or 1st Group/ Asia deployed to AFG), Afghanistan largely remained a 3rd Group fight. Ranger's, 160th, and other SMU's were able to work both countries concurrently, but Iraq received the bulk of their resources until 2009-2010 or so.

DEVGRU had worked some land-oriented missions prior to 9/11, Somalia (as part of Task Force Ranger) and Bosnia are open source. Maybe other stuff happened, but it wasn't large scale. The background on all of that is probably better for another post.

The Army didn't roll over. It didn't have the people and it makes sense to have a unit work the same area for continuity purposes.

 

[Devildoc]

I believe both DEVGRU and Delta sent people/teams between both theaters as well and farmed out some missions to other units.

But even the 'vanilla' teams had a stickup its ass, a my-way-or-highway way of operating (see Operation Red Wings). ST6 was magnified, on steroids (see Operation Anaconda). With ST6 specifically and the other teams generically, the outcomes were terrible symptoms of significant disease at the leadership/command level. I maintain that Delta did not abide these issues and would kick out the trouble-makers whereas ST6 would just close the doors and circle the wagons.

I am not sure that 18X has higher attrition than BUDS.

 

[TLDR20]

Big Navy used to require recruitment from Ranks. But then the GWOT happened and they expanded the mission set of NAVSPECWAR to land warfare for god knows what reason, I guess the Army didn't want to put up too much of a fight on that. They always had a land warfare component to what they do, but nothing like what it is today. SF has direct recruitment but the 18X pathway seems to have significantly higher attrition than SEALs do, maybe it doesn't but that's what it seemed like when I was in the Army. I know part of the BUD/S passrate supposedly came out of an investigation where classes were coming out with 20 graduates. And we've talked a few times about some of the subsequent investigations since. Don't think the course is easier, but I do wonder if they're passing more "completers" than they have historically.

I think the other reason for their direct recruitment pipeline is due to mission set being so different from the rest of the Navy does.

SEALs have a land warfare mission and have since their inception. That they are a maritime component is a separate thing.

The 18X and SEAL entry programs are not comparable. 18X’s are trained as infantryman, go through airborne, and a dedicated prep program. The attrition from beginning to end is about 70%. SEALs do get people from the fleet, they are not only a direct entry path, and the GWOT has nothing to do with that. SEALs have always had a direct entry program, as well as allowing sailors from the fleet. The SEAL entry program does not have the built in weed out capability that the Army program has, so many guys that have no business at BUD/S in the first place fail/quit at the first real adversity.

It may seem like there is high attrition if you are in a regular infantry or cav unit because all you see is the washouts. I always say we had a higher attrition rate of 18X’s in OSUT than SFAS. I think in my basic company, I was the only 18X that joined that way that made it. However many guys picked up the contract in OSUT and did make it.

I would contend the actual best way to train SOF is to send everyone joining any pipeline through a standardized SOF centric version of infantry OSUT. Teach them the basics of being a warfighter, then let them specialize into whatever…

 

[WaffleHouseFan]

This whole SEAL thing should never have happened. The Navy should’ve stuck to the frogman/UDT role of WW2 and the Department of the Navy should’ve relegated the development of a Naval special operation land warfare element to the Marines. Just my armchair 20-20 hindsight opinion…but it’s kinda why marines in general were invented.

There's an interesting book called "By Water Beneath the Walls" that goes into historical detail of how the SEALs ended up becoming on of the DoD's top land-raid options.

From what I recall, the book describes numerous attempts by the Army to create a proficient commando/raiding force in WWII, Korea, and then Vietnam, but they never lasted long and suffered due to lack of support. Their value wasn't recognized by the higher leadership, who didn't want to take their "most elite" people and resources away from conventional operations. The book describes a lot of early tragedies and triumphs from those early "SOF" missions.

In Vietnam, the SEALs were born out of the combination of the reluctance of other branches' leaders to support such units, while the Navy was "bored and looking for something to do", and then you add the river systems in Vietnam that made covert infiltration by water so valuable. And then their success in Vietnam gave them the momentum to continue until today.

At least that's what I gathered from reading the book. I have zero mil experience and don't know any SEALs.

 

[AWP]

From what I recall, the book describes numerous attempts by the Army to create a proficient commando/raiding force in WWII, Korea, and then Vietnam, but they never lasted long and suffered due to lack of support. Their value wasn't recognized by the higher leadership, who didn't want to take their "most elite" people and resources away from conventional operations. The book describes a lot of early tragedies and triumphs from those early "SOF" missions.

In Vietnam, the SEALs were born out of the combination of the reluctance of other branches' leaders to support such units, while the Navy was "bored and looking for something to do", and then you add the river systems in Vietnam that made covert infiltration by water so valuable. And then their success in Vietnam gave them the momentum to continue until today.

At least that's what I gathered from reading the book. I have zero mil experience and don't know any SEALs.

I haven't read the book, but some of your statements are historically inaccurate. Not your fault.

 

[WaffleHouseFan]

I hate that NSW has become a cultural brand with books and movies

Just my perspective of a young civilian trying to get into a SOF pipeline, I have met a fair number of 20 year-olds who are trying to get a contract to BUDS, AFSW, or SFAS.

Most (not all) of the aspiring SEALs I've met came across as arrogant/insecure and somewhat glory seeking. And they seem to have been drawn in by the movies and books. One guy literally told me at MEPS that he can't wait to earn his trident, go back to the restaurant his ex-girlfriend works at, and then slap it on the table in front of her lmao. He also talked about how cool O'Neill is.

Most of the AFSW applicants I've met are humble and kind of nerdy but in a good way (except for a few arrogant guys who were literally there because they couldn't qualify for BUDS). I haven't met many other guys going for 18X / SF but the few I've met were all super strong and humble.

I'm sure the SEAL "brand" is good for Navy recruiting, but from it doesn't seem to be attracting the best character.

 

[WaffleHouseFan]

I haven't read the book, but some of your statements are historically inaccurate. Not your fault.

Yeah, the book was written by a former SEAL, I should add .

 

[Box]

Well if history shows anything its that a sky full of paratroopers do not meet the US Army definition of "proficient raiding force"
...good thing a small specialized commando element pulled Americas ass out of the fire on that one.

Now if only the Air force could figure out how to create a proficient bombing capability. Except for the few lucky moments in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam they've never lasted long and suffered due to lack of support.

From my foxhole, the US has ALWAYS deliberately created overlapping capabilities across the entire force so there is never a single point of failure.
Its why the Army has boats and flying machines.
It's why the US Marine Corps has tanks.
It's why the Army fired the Air Force after WW2 when the Army Air Corps failed to...
...NO, wait, it's why the Air Force became its own branch after WW2 and then turned right around created PJs and CCTs

The SEALs are not the solution to everything.
Rangers are not the solution to everything.
The Marines have the coolest uniforms.
Army Special Forces have the coolest hats.
None of us can get were we are trying to go without the Air Force
...and every single one of us has been saddled with a shit bag that we just can't seem to get rid of.

 

[Devildoc]

Well if history shows anything its that a sky full of paratroopers do not meet the US Army definition of "proficient raiding force"
...good thing a small specialized commando element pulled Americas ass out of the fire on that one.

Now if only the Air force could figure out how to create a proficient bombing capability. Except for the few lucky moments in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam they've never lasted long and suffered due to lack of support.

From my foxhole, the US has ALWAYS deliberately created overlapping capabilities across the entire force so there is never a single point of failure.
Its why the Army has boats and flying machines.
It's why the US Marine Corps has tanks.
It's why the Army fired the Air Force after WW2 when the Army Air Corps failed to...
...NO, wait, it's why the Air Force became its own branch after WW2 and then turned right around created PJs and CCTs

The SEALs are not the solution to everything.
Rangers are not the solution to everything.
The Marines have the coolest uniforms.
Army Special Forces have the coolest hats.
None of us can get were we are trying to go without the Air Force
...and every single one of us has been saddled with a shit bag that we just can't seem to get rid of.

Well, the Marines HAD tanks, and don't need no stinkin' Air Force. Okay, that part was a bit tongue in cheek.

I think some of the overlapping capabilities are good initiative but poor judgment, internecine fighting, and politics. But absolutely a crossover of multiple skill sets, TTPs, and capabilities have been an enabling and force multiplying factor for the DOD.

I think CCT actually predates the AF, too. For sure every branch has a finger in the pie.

 

[Box]

Well, the Marines HAD tanks...

Originally those tanks were just meant to carry crayons and water - then they realized they could mount an artillery piece in the passenger seat - things changed BIG after that.

...don't need no stinkin' Air Force.

Its also why the USMC flies those Harriers - they cant trust the sailors to drive the boat straight when they are on short final and the Air Force is afraid that they'll lose their girlfriends to those cool looking dress blues.

...overlapping capabilities are good initiative but poor judgment, internecine fighting, and politics.

You see, I don't really know what internecine fighting means - and since I've never had to fight an internicine, I'm just going to assume that you meant "tangerine" as in a color of crayon - and that you saw a bunch of grunts fighting over who got to eat the orange colored crayon.
...but you do make a very valid point.

Otherwise, I think a little overlap is a great thing until folks forget why we need that overlap in the first place - that's when we start fighting over who gets the most tangerines and whether or not Green Berets are cooler than SEALs (hint - they are - refer to my earlier comment about our cool looking hats). Inter-service politics is usually because of politicians fighting over which state is going to get the taxpayer funded Fighter-Jet factory. It's almost never because a bunch of grunts wearing moderately diifferent colored camouflage are fighting over who gets to eat the orange crayon.

I think CCT actually predates the AF, too. For sure every branch has a finger in the pie.

Well, some would argue that the Army Air Corp and the 101st just called them Pathfinders...


Overall my point is this - books like "Code Over country" are written so the author can put money in the bank. Sticking to the truth - refusing to lean the story either toward or away from any possible bias - embellishing a few events - denial of blame - pointing fingers...
...these are all secondary and will be negotiated the instant a publisher demands a little more pizazz before they start cutting royalty checks.

A few weeks back, I worked at the school house with SEALs, PJs, CCTs, TACPs, Marines, USAF SERE Guys, EOD, Boat Guys, Rangers, and SF Guys.
Admittedly some of the SF guys came from the shitty groups and not the GOOD one that I came from, but whats a guy to do - you gotta play the cards you are dealt.
Most of them were incredible dudes - in spite of being SEALs.
It seems like I spent most of my off duty time hanging around the Air Force dudes.
When I left - the Marines gave me a paddle.
Parent service didnt really seem to matter that much - we all had a job to do and we did it.
Overall - there weren't very many times when we fought over who was going to get the most tangerines - but I'm pretty certain that if every single person I worked with wrote a book - every single OTHER person I worked with would make fun of them for writing it.

Except me - nobody would make fun of me - because my book would be fucking epic.

 

[Devildoc]

A few weeks back, I worked at school house with SEALs, PJs, CCTs, TACPs, USAF SERE Guys, EOD, Boat Guys, Rangers, and SF Guys.
Admittedly some of the SF guys came from the shitty groups and not the GOOD one that I came from, but whats a guy to do - you gotta play the cards you are dealt.
Most of them were incredible dudes - in spite of being SEALs.
It seems like I spent most of my off duty time hanging around the Air Force dudes.
When I left - the Marines gave me a paddle.
Overall - there weren't very many times when we fought over who was going to get the most tangerines - but I'm pretty certain that if every single person I worked with wrote a book - every single OTHER person I worked with would make fun of them for writing it.

Yeah, I absolutely agree.

A person is good, but people are awful. That's paraphrasing some famous quote from somebody I can't remember. There are some awesome SEALs, no doubt. I know a few. But as a unit or command?

For certain I've seen some awful guys in other units from other branches; however, The culture and leadership usually will cull most of that herd at some point. But every now and then some dirtbags fall through the cracks.

That book may have been not a labor of love but an opportunity for the dollar, but it doesn't make it any less true or valid. I think anyone who's paid attention to the news, especially inside the military, over the past 20-something years has seen the leadership and culture issues with Navy Special Warfare.

 

[Teufel]

There's an interesting book called "By Water Beneath the Walls" that goes into historical detail of how the SEALs ended up becoming on of the DoD's top land-raid options.

From what I recall, the book describes numerous attempts by the Army to create a proficient commando/raiding force in WWII, Korea, and then Vietnam, but they never lasted long and suffered due to lack of support. Their value wasn't recognized by the higher leadership, who didn't want to take their "most elite" people and resources away from conventional operations. The book describes a lot of early tragedies and triumphs from those early "SOF" missions.

In Vietnam, the SEALs were born out of the combination of the reluctance of other branches' leaders to support such units, while the Navy was "bored and looking for something to do", and then you add the river systems in Vietnam that made covert infiltration by water so valuable. And then their success in Vietnam gave them the momentum to continue until today.

At least that's what I gathered from reading the book. I have zero mil experience and don't know any SEALs.

I will start this conversation by saying that I’m a Marine, and have not served in the Army or JSOC. That said, the premier raid force in American history has always been the Army Rangers since the revolutionary war. That unit was foundational to not only SOF but also to the creation of our nation.

 

[WaffleHouseFan]

I will start this conversation by saying that I’m a Marine, and have not served in the Army or JSOC. That said, the premier raid force in American history has always been the Army Rangers since the revolutionary war. That unit was foundational to not only SOF but also to the creation of our nation.

I should probably clarify, the book didn't state or imply that the Army wasn't able to create an effective raiding force. Rather, it asserted that such units were created and were effective but only until they were disbanded (because they took too many casualties, or for other reasons) rather than reconstituted and maintained as a permanent continuous force. For example, the author writes a lot about Col. William Darby's Rangers in WWII, who were a crucial asset in Europe until they got worn down from fighting and then decimated in the battle of Cisterna, and then the remaining few survivors were sent to other units, rather than the Rangers being rebuilt.

Again, I'm just trying to recall what I read in that book a while ago. I've barely studied Ranger history, but I'm adding it to my todo list.

 

[WaffleHouseFan]

Perhaps this convo is too tangential though. Didn't mean to diverge from the thread this much. My bad.

 

[DA SWO]

It's why the Army fired the Air Force after WW2 when the Army Air Corps failed to...
...NO, wait, it's why the Air Force became its own branch after WW2 and then turned right around created PJs and CCTs

SOWT/PJ/CCT all existed in WW II, just had different names. IIRC, the weather guys were first.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Your guess is wrong. Numerous folks of varying ranks all came out and said the same thing: JSOC "split" and Delta handled Iraq while DEVGRU handled Afghanistan. Part of that reason was Iraq and Delta's deployment cycle turned on its ear as a result of the heavy fighting from '04 on. Delta lacked the personnel to prosecute both wars, so splitting the units makes sense. Army Special Forces were heavily involved as were "vanilla" SEAL teams in Afghanistan. Maybe you recall that the SF Groups have a regional orientation and while some of that was broken for manpower reasons (7th Group/ Latin America or 1st Group/ Asia deployed to AFG), Afghanistan largely remained a 3rd Group fight. Ranger's, 160th, and other SMU's were able to work both countries concurrently, but Iraq received the bulk of their resources until 2009-2010 or so.

DEVGRU had worked some land-oriented missions prior to 9/11, Somalia (as part of Task Force Ranger) and Bosnia are open source. Maybe other stuff happened, but it wasn't large scale. The background on all of that is probably better for another post.

The Army didn't roll over. It didn't have the people and it makes sense to have a unit work the same area for continuity purposes.

Good stuff there. I'm not attempting to conflate massive expansion of either force to 1947. But the massive expansion of SEAL Teams and Unit sizes and granting of mission real estate to a maritime arm just continuously felt weird. Only reason I bring up 1947 is the Army lost something for 20 years and effectively took a massive war to get it back (organic air with guns).

SEALs have a land warfare mission and have since their inception. That they are a maritime component is a separate thing.

The 18X and SEAL entry programs are not comparable. 18X’s are trained as infantryman, go through airborne, and a dedicated prep program. The attrition from beginning to end is about 70%. SEALs do get people from the fleet, they are not only a direct entry path, and the GWOT has nothing to do with that. SEALs have always had a direct entry program, as well as allowing sailors from the fleet. The SEAL entry program does not have the built in weed out capability that the Army program has, so many guys that have no business at BUD/S in the first place fail/quit at the first real adversity.

It may seem like there is high attrition if you are in a regular infantry or cav unit because all you see is the washouts. I always say we had a higher attrition rate of 18X’s in OSUT than SFAS. I think in my basic company, I was the only 18X that joined that way that made it. However many guys picked up the contract in OSUT and did make it.

I would contend the actual best way to train SOF is to send everyone joining any pipeline through a standardized SOF centric version of infantry OSUT. Teach them the basics of being a warfighter, then let them specialize into whatever…

Thanks, good stuff.

 

[Gunz]

The Marine Raiders originally were commandos. The Army Rangers still are. We gave all our tanks to the Army. We’re dumping our Harriers for 35Bs and the SEALs are Puff Monsters with literary agents and ghost writers.