Get Rid of the Marine Corps???

[Teufel]

As one who participated in the early days of Operation Restore Hope, I've got to disagree...nothing to do with the quality of troops or leadership, but the Navy-Marine Corp did a piss poor job of sustaining operations in Somalia in 92-early 93...

The Marine Corps shouldn’t be a long term sustainment solution. The MEU can cover 90 days of a crisis without support.

 

[Teufel]

Combined Arms package is becoming less combined arms now though. All Tank Battalions have cased their colors. Reduced the number of Artillery Battalions and number of airframes in squadrons. The Corps is axing all of its tank battalions and cutting grunt units

Effectively a Marine Corps Landing team is now less capable unless we're creating US Army provisional tank companies to fulfill that role and attaching them to the Marine Corps for deployment? I know guys who've been in provisional rifle companies in the Marine Corps, but in my experience, provisional companies aren't stood up in the Army too often.

This is why I think the MEU is best suited for humanitarian relief and small scale crises that don’t require tanks now. We probably should get more joint across the board. Why not use Army tanks? We already rely on purple air.

 

[Teufel]

Hell, we can pump the brakes on that whole cost argument with two airframes.

V-22
F-35B

I think the V22 was money well spent. The F35B....

 

[Teufel]

Add the$35M/airframe CH-53K

That’s around the same cost for an Apache or a chinook. Helicopters are expensive.

 

[Ranger Psych]

I think the V22 was money well spent. The F35B....

@amlove21 can I escort you into this discussion?

 

[Teufel]

And of course, in conclusion:

 

[Hillclimb]

Bold face part.
Standard argument that ignores:
Navy providing medical services.
Air Force, Army, and Navy doing most of the weapons acquisitions for the Marines.
Plus a lot of other small support functions the other services provide, usually at no cost.
Put those costs into the Corps budget, then tell me how efficient you are.

What? Can you elaborate?

Because I can name a dozen things service provided or transitioned from our CD&I office that arent. We always goto Marine Corps Warfighting Lab to partner up, or with transition in mind.

I will say we hide a lot of our aviation budget in the Navy. we can barely afford that, thats why shits always breaking down

 

[amlove21]

@amlove21 can I escort you into this discussion?

Cursed. CURSED. C U R S E D. The CV (or MV, or just V) 22 is just so ugly, even helicopters make fun of it.

I think we all agree a fast platform, able to land anywhere and defeat the tyranny of distance, is a good idea. Next time we make one, we are going to go full regalia. This time didn't work out great. Next time though, we are really gonna crush it.

As an infantry, small force delivery/extract platform, it's ok, I guess? In reality, it's just not as versatile as we need it to be.

And what I mean is- it has some weapons but isn't a great weapons platform. It has some sensors but isn't a great ISR platform. It has a hoist, but you don't want to actually hoist from it. It's got the ability to fast-rope and rappel.... but also hard pass.

 

[Devildoc]

Not wanting to dog pile on the Osprey, but...I was on an Osprey for a training at Camp Lejeune a few weeks before my first anniversary 20 years ago; just a couple weeks later, that same aircraft augured into the Onslow County countryside just outside of Lejeune. I've been in a hard landing on a -46, which I still like, but the Osprey, man, it feels like bad ju-ju to me....

 

[SOSTCRNA]

One of our teams saved a Ranger with an in-flight thoracotomy a few years back and I think it was on an Osprey. I may be wrong but I know I have set up and flown them on several missions and they worked well for us.

 

[AWP]

I think we all agree a fast platform, able to land anywhere and defeat the tyranny of distance, is a good idea. Next time we make one, we are going to go full regalia. This time didn't work out great. Next time though, we are really gonna crush it.

As an infantry, small force delivery/extract platform, it's ok, I guess? In reality, it's just not as versatile as we need it to be.

And what I mean is- it has some weapons but isn't a great weapons platform. It has some sensors but isn't a great ISR platform. It has a hoist, but you don't want to actually hoist from it. It's got the ability to fast-rope and rappel.... but also hard pass.

As the 1st Gen of its kind, I'd like to think a lot of lessons were learned towards whatever they build next in that class.

I have yet to meet the person who wants to fast-rope from a -22. One guy said it wasn't a firepole as much as a Slide for Life, no "verticality" to the rope at all.

 

[Ranger Psych]

I'd do it just to try it, but it's not like it'd be my first bad decision in life.

 

[Teufel]

As the 1st Gen of its kind, I'd like to think a lot of lessons were learned towards whatever they build next in that class.

I have yet to meet the person who wants to fast-rope from a -22. One guy said it wasn't a firepole as much as a Slide for Life, no "verticality" to the rope at all.

Im your huckleberry! No thrill seekers in the crowd? This is why 1st Force was the first unit to test the fulcrum sky hook.

 

[amlove21]

Im your huckleberry! No thrill seekers in the crowd? This is why 1st Force was the first unit to test the fulcrum sky hook.

Absolute pass. Hard pass.

I have a 200 foot near zero illum hoist on an Osprey, and have tested them in the water. I will pass. For all the things.

 

[Teufel]

Absolute pass. Hard pass.

I have a 200 foot near zero illum hoist on an Osprey, and have tested them in the water. I will pass. For all the things.

It’s better for the general purpose force than SOF.

 

[Devildoc]

It is fast, and it has range, but to quote a great American leader and Patriot, give me the 46 or give me death. I'm pretty sure he also said that a 53 would do in a pinch.

 

[Teufel]

At what proficiency level? Marine Corps pipeline is longer by some significant measure. Just looking at IET+AIT type scenarios for Infantry Only.

USA Army Boot Camp 10 Weeks
Marine Corps Boot Camp 13 Weeks
______________________________________
Infantry AIT 12 Weeks (As of 2019)
Marine Corps SOI-ITR 8 Weeks

So Infantry Soldiers receive 22 Weeks of training before first unit assignment and Infantry Marines receive 21 weeks. Prior to 2018 pilot program that was adopted in 2019 for Infantry and Armor Branched Soldiers, Infantry Soldiers only received 14 weeks of training before going to a follow on school (airborne) or their first unit. Now the training an Infantry Soldier receives is comparable to an Infantry Marine. So in all actuality, previously you could probably say Marines were more expensive to train.

(Jesus, I wish Scouts had 22 weeks of training when I was in the Army, there'd have been a lot less fat ones showing up as privates when I was a PL)

Also in my experience, Marine Officers are more expensive to train compared to Army Counterparts. For everyone but Academy Grads (OCS+TBS+MOSQ) vs most Army folks ROTC (LDAC*+MOSQ).

*West Point Graduates fulfill the equivalent of the LDAC requirement but it's in the West Point Curriculum.

The Marine Corps is seriously considering extending the school of infantry by six or more months and significantly raising the graduation standard. We will see what ultimately happens but the infantry is definitely getting a dramatic upgrade.

 

[ThunderHorse]

The Marine Corps is seriously considering extending the school of infantry by six or more months and significantly raising the graduation standard. We will see what ultimately happens but the infantry is definitely getting a dramatic upgrade.

 

[Marauder06]

The Marine Corps is seriously considering extending the school of infantry by six or more months and significantly raising the graduation standard. We will see what ultimately happens but the infantry is definitely getting a dramatic upgrade.

That's interesting. Six additional MONTHS? What is the Corps going to teach folks about infantry stuff in that length of time? Wouldn't they be better off in units?

 

[Devildoc]

That's interesting. Six additional MONTHS? What is the Corps going to teach folks about infantry stuff in that length of time? Wouldn't they be better off in units?

Royal Marine training is 32 weeks, basically boot camp, infantry school, and some other specialty training. But they have much much lower numbers and their roles are much much narrower.