The Current Commandant of the Marine Corps vs. ...all of the other former Commandants?

[AWP]

Not to be a pedantic dick, but CUI isn't supposed to be shared outside of gov/ mil websites.

 

[Devildoc]

Not to be a pedantic dick, but CUI isn't supposed to be shared outside of gov/ mil websites.

I didn't know that. I can delete. Ironically, that doc is ALL over the interwebs.

 

[AWP]

I didn't know that. I can delete. Ironically, that doc is ALL over the interwebs.

I'm not sharpshooting you per se, but it seems like CUI is all over the place.

 

[Devildoc]

I'm not sharpshooting you per se, but it seems like CUI is all over the place.

No worries, really. I don't want to do the wrong thing not matter how often it's done elsewhere.

 

[Cookie_]

My coworker was a PIG (Professionally Instructed Gunman) in a scout plt before he got out in 2017. He did the DM course, pre-sniper, and was a late vw from the sniper course.

He's mentioned for about the past year that the sniper community was it's own worst enemy.
He learned more in DM and pre-sniper than he did in his time at the sniper course. It was more of a "who can endure being smoked all day" than an actual training course. Cadre were proud of the high attrition, and (according to him) happy when a class would have zero graduates.

His take on this is that the USMC is probably going to move forward with creating a scout MOS, which was something he remembers being discussed back in 2016.
The idea (as he remembers it) is they would get the DM course and stalking training in AIT, then be trained by snipers in the plt before going to the course.


*Obviously I don't have a dog in this fight, just sharing someone else's perspective.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

It was more of a "who can endure being smoked all day" than an actual training course. Cadre were proud of the high attrition, and (according to him) happy when a class would have zero graduates.

Sounds similar to the concerns about SEAL training.

 

[Teufel]

No doubt @Teufel will have more insight on this.

I'm assuming the Designated Marksman still exists at squad or platoon level? And scout-sniper capabilities will be taught as an adjunct during the Recon or Marsoc pipeline? I doubt the Marines need to send anybody to Army schools when it comes to rifle courses.

This is a tough one. I saw this coming ten years ago and wrote an information paper on it. Bottom line scout sniper school has always maintained a very high attrition rate and failed to produce enough snipers to meet fleet requirements. This caught General Officer level attention because of our unit readiness reporting system. They took a look at the school house and everyone agreed to maintain the shooting standards but few commanders cared as much about the stalking requirements that drove a significant portion of the student failures. Meanwhile unit deployment evaluations indicated that scout sniper platoons were generally failing to adequately perform their scouting mission for their infantry battalions.

Scout Sniper School was not producing enough graduates, and these snipers were not sufficiently trained to meet Fleet Marine Force requirements. There existed a fundamental mismatch between what the S/S community and instructors believed the course should impart to students, and what the infantry commanders required. The attrition was not unique to entry level candidates either. Recon and MARSOC students were frequently failing sniper school and the rationale for these drops was not always reasonable. MARSOC created their own sniper school a while back that met their training requirements without all the badge guardian aspects. Recon created their own course a few years ago. Both of those courses are tailored to fleet requirements and are producing excellent precision marksmen without sacrificing training standards. The other course will be gone soon and will be replaced by a scout course tailored to what the infantry battalion commanders want.

I told my sniper friends a long time ago that they collectively needed to find a way to fix these problems or Headquarters Marine Corps would fix it for them. I predicted that they wouldn't like the way HQMC would do it and it gives me no pleasure to be right. I think that this is a rebranding of the scout sniper community personally, with a change in mission focus and possibly unit culture. The Marine Corps has never liked some aspects of sniper culture like branding the S/S lightning bolts on your body and some kopfjaeger/german motifs.

 

[Gunz]

Thanks, sir. That pretty much answers all the questions.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

And as if on que….

Marine Corps Axes Elite Scout Sniper Platoons

A spokesman for the Marine Corps confirmed that the scout sniper platoons would be eliminated, but said that the underlying skill set would be integrated elsewhere in the service.

"Precision rifle capability will remain within the infantry company, and the Marine Corps will continue to maintain school-trained snipers within Marine Reconnaissance and Marine Special Operations units," said service spokesman Capt. Ryan Bruce.

Bruce added that the Marine Corps' Training Command "is in the process of analyzing both the new scout platoon mission and enduring requirements for precision marksmanship capabilities to determine the performance standards and training options necessary."

Snipers are qualified to venture 10 to 20 miles beyond the forward line of troops, into the enemy's domain. Reconnaissance skills, like days-long observation of enemy outposts, are tough to maintain, as is the ability to shoot long distances with different sophisticated rifle systems. They're trained in how to call for fire and close-air support, and have to understand complex mission planning requirements.

The messages outlining the changes, posted to social media, described the move as being driven by the two-year-long "Infantry Battalion Experimentation" the Corps undertook, which "showed the scouting capabilities in the newly designed Infantry Companies were insufficient to offer the Battalion continuous all-weather information gathering."

 

[Teufel]

Don't be surprised if the infantry battalions start sending their Marines to the Recon sniper course. Hard to justify the attrition and format of the old course if the Recon sniper course is delivering the results the infantry divisions want and the original scout sniper course is not. I used to tell Recon Marines all the time. The 'community' doesn't determine mission requirements and objectives. That's up to the supported unit commanders. You get yourself into a lot of trouble when your vision of what you should be doesn't line up well with what the service expects from you.

 

[Deleted member 2517]

This is a tough one. I saw this coming ten years ago and wrote an information paper on it. Bottom line scout sniper school has always maintained a very high attrition rate and failed to produce enough snipers to meet fleet requirements. This caught General Officer level attention because of our unit readiness reporting system. They took a look at the school house and everyone agreed to maintain the shooting standards but few commanders cared as much about the stalking requirements that drove a significant portion of the student failures. Meanwhile unit deployment evaluations indicated that scout sniper platoons were generally failing to adequately perform their scouting mission for their infantry battalions.

Scout Sniper School was not producing enough graduates, and these snipers were not sufficiently trained to meet Fleet Marine Force requirements. There existed a fundamental mismatch between what the S/S community and instructors believed the course should impart to students, and what the infantry commanders required. The attrition was not unique to entry level candidates either. Recon and MARSOC students were frequently failing sniper school and the rationale for these drops was not always reasonable. MARSOC created their own sniper school a while back that met their training requirements without all the badge guardian aspects. Recon created their own course a few years ago. Both of those courses are tailored to fleet requirements and are producing excellent precision marksmen without sacrificing training standards. The other course will be gone soon and will be replaced by a scout course tailored to what the infantry battalion commanders want.

I told my sniper friends a long time ago that they collectively needed to find a way to fix these problems or Headquarters Marine Corps would fix it for them. I predicted that they wouldn't like the way HQMC would do it and it gives me no pleasure to be right. I think that this is a rebranding of the scout sniper community personally, with a change in mission focus and possibly unit culture. The Marine Corps has never liked some aspects of sniper culture like branding the S/S lightning bolts on your body and some kopfjaeger/german motifs.

Army sniper has had the same issue the last year or so. Full disclosure- I have my B4 qualification, I’ve done my ghillie wash and I’ve partied in the barracks parking lot many a Friday nights, but I don’t consider myself a sniper. I do have a lot of love for the community and keep up with my buddies in our sniper platoon and the ones I met from the big Army/Air force.

There have been some pretty egregious blunders going on at USASC the last two years. Specifically- the course went from a 50-60% graduation rate when I went, with no change to curriculum and a new teaching strategy that included optional weekend training.

Then a new NCOIC took over (same one who had previously been the “big army” pathfinder school ncoic that got that school shuttered…) and the graduation rates dropped to below 5% for almost a year.

Yes, 5%.

As in 3 classes had 9 people graduate over 6 months.

The brass at MCOE almost shut the course down. They audited, fired, and investigated their way back to the old ways. The course is back to a healthy 50% pass rate- the class one of my dudes just graduated from, they had 10 people total fail. Class before that 75% failed. Which I think is fair- you have weak and strong classes, but the Army and the sniper community realized “we are badge protecting ourselves out of existence.” And have shifted course.

I wish the Marine Corps had done that sooner.

 

[Teufel]

At one point the CO of SOI East told the course director to improve graduation rates and got a lot of push back so he pulled the student roster and graduated everyone who passed the shooting portions.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

You get yourself into a lot of trouble when your vision of what you should be doesn't line up well with what the service expects from you.

“we are badge protecting ourselves out of existence.”

I love both of these quotes because they also apply in the business world so well.

It is sometimes shocking to me how often some of the smartest people I know cannot get out of their own way, and then are shocked when someone above is forced to intervene.

 

[Devildoc]

It is sometimes shocking to me how often some of the smartest people I know cannot get out of their own way, and then are shocked when someone above is forced to intervene.

A combination of the Peter Principle and organizational inbreeding.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Hehe

Force Modernization - Terminal Lance

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Not to be a pedantic dick, but CUI isn't supposed to be shared outside of gov/ mil websites.

I didn't know that. I can delete. Ironically, that doc is ALL over the interwebs.

It is scary when you think about what is ‘all over then interwebs’ that probably shouldn’t be. About once a week the site gets a ‘reported post’ about something like this and I usually just quietly fix it and send a quick note to the OP with an explanation.

Thanks for the catch @AWP and the fix @Devildoc .

 

[ThunderHorse]

So, I thought this was interesting...not really about the reconnaissance formations part...but because the Corps in all its forward thinking is doing a Littoral Exercise in a desert that has no water and we're using "notional" islands... The Future of Army Reconnaissance: Lessons from a Marine Corps Exercise in the Mojave Desert - Modern War Institute

 

[Teufel]

So, I thought this was interesting...not really about the reconnaissance formations part...but because the Corps in all its forward thinking is doing a Littoral Exercise in a desert that has no water and we're using "notional" islands... The Future of Army Reconnaissance: Lessons from a Marine Corps Exercise in the Mojave Desert - Modern War Institute

It’s one of the best and largest live fire training areas in the DOD. It also has built in evaluators and role players for different training objectives. The MLR has also done this on small islands in the Phillipines, Okinawa, and Hawaii but they discourage the use of large munitions there.

 

[ThunderHorse]

It’s one of the best and largest live fire training areas in the DOD. It also has built in evaluators and role players for different training objectives. The MLR has also done this on small islands in the Phillipines, Okinawa, and Hawaii but they discourage the use of large munitions there.

Notional training in a Desert is not something I would have done personally.

 

[Teufel]

Notional training in a Desert is not something I would have done personally.

I’ll let them know. Every unit in the Marine Corps goes to ITX at 29 Palms for their final live fire evacuation before deploying. Including the MLR.