Israel and Iran

[Dame]

Losing country gets a massive regime change.
I read the thread the @Blizzard posted, supposedly Pakistan's Chinese supplied ABM system was a massive failure.

So if the CHICOMs are following Sun Tzu's advice, they gave lousy missiles and failed systems to the Pakis on purpose in order to appear weak. #sandbaggers

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

...I don't know what to call our relationship as they are very opportunistic. ... Israel could give two shits about relations with other countries...Israel will ultimately do whatever it wants and I don't think we should view our relationship with them the same way we do with FVEY nations for example.

That's why I say, just another "haji" country. Not saying that in pejorative racial terms, though it fits, but another group that thinks it is holy and has an ego way outside their own capability.

 

[Gunz]

Friends? Sort of. We can't forget the Liberty back in '67 and the Israelis have no issues taking our tech, making changes whether we allowed it or not, and then reselling or attempting to resell that tech. I don't know what to call our relationship as they are very opportunistic. Nations act in their own self-interest which I fully support. I think the difference between Israel and most other nations is Israel could give two shits about relations with other countries. I get it and don't fault them for that policy, but we have to acknowledge it exists.

I'd cheer if Israel bulldozed Gaza into the sea and they have every right to act in their own defense. Israel will ultimately do whatever it wants and I don't think we should view our relationship with them the same way we do with FVEY nations for example.

There's a great story about Danny Yatom--who was Mossad chief back in '97--who learned from his case officer in Washington that Clinton was having phone sex with Monica Lewinsky. Yatom sent a comm unit to DC to follow up...and they started bugging Lewinsky's phone, lol. The tapes went back to Tel Aviv in a diplo bag and everybody had a good laugh.

There wasn't any talk of blackmail...but every swinging dick in that room knew those tapes were bioleverage gold if US support ever wavered during a crisis. (Gold, at least, until it became public.)

 

[Marauder06]

As many have said here on the site, governments don't have friends they have interests.

For example, we fought two wars against the United Kingdom, because it was in our interests to do so. Now, they are literally our closest, most reliable, and most capable allies. Why? Interests. Similarly with Germany and Japan... and we literally nuked Japan. Twice.

We are partners with Israel because it's in our mutual interests to do so. It's far more in Israel's interests than ours, because life would be a whole lot harder for Israel, and it might not even exist, if not for US support.

But we get something out of the relationship as well. They are a good market for our defense industry, they have an excellent spy network, they have a solid economy that generates good trade with us, and--and this is very important--they're a country that shares a lot of our core values. In fact, our founding core values, which were shaped by men who were Christian (or deists or theists), largely grew out of Jewish tradition.

At the same time, Israel has bombed our naval vessels, killed our citizens, committed mass acts of industrial and intelligence espionage against us, and regularly does things we don't like, like expanding settlements in the West Bank. They do all of these things because it is in their interests to do so.

It is in our interests to continue to side with Israel, especially over Hamas. Hamas' interests and values are fundamentally at odds with ours. We can exist with, and benefit from, Israel. We can do neither with Hamas.

 

[Totentanz]

As many have said here on the site, governments don't have friends they have interests.

At the risk of sounding pithy, a government that prioritizes its friends over its interests probably isn't governing very well.

 

[AWP]

As many have said here on the site, governments don't have friends they have interests.

For example, we fought two wars against the United Kingdom, because it was in our interests to do so. Now, they are literally our closest, most reliable, and most capable allies. Why? Interests. Similarly with Germany and Japan... and we literally nuked Japan. Twice.

We are partners with Israel because it's in our mutual interests to do so. It's far more in Israel's interests than ours, because life would be a whole lot harder for Israel, and it might not even exist, if not for US support.

But we get something out of the relationship as well. They are a good market for our defense industry, they have an excellent spy network, they have a solid economy that generates good trade with us, and--and this is very important--they're a country that shares a lot of our core values. In fact, our founding core values, which were shaped by men who were Christian (or deists or theists), largely grew out of Jewish tradition.

At the same time, Israel has bombed our naval vessels, killed our citizens, committed mass acts of industrial and intelligence espionage against us, and regularly does things we don't like, like expanding settlements in the West Bank. They do all of these things because it is in their interests to do so.

It is in our interests to continue to side with Israel, especially over Hamas. Hamas' interests and values are fundamentally at odds with ours. We can exist with, and benefit from, Israel. We can do neither with Hamas.

I hate it when you sound smarter than me...

 

[R.Caerbannog]

As many have said here on the site, governments don't have friends they have interests.

For example, we fought two wars against the United Kingdom, because it was in our interests to do so. Now, they are literally our closest, most reliable, and most capable allies. Why? Interests. Similarly with Germany and Japan... and we literally nuked Japan. Twice.

We are partners with Israel because it's in our mutual interests to do so. It's far more in Israel's interests than ours, because life would be a whole lot harder for Israel, and it might not even exist, if not for US support.

But we get something out of the relationship as well. They are a good market for our defense industry, they have an excellent spy network, they have a solid economy that generates good trade with us, and--and this is very important--they're a country that shares a lot of our core values. In fact, our founding core values, which were shaped by men who were Christian (or deists or theists), largely grew out of Jewish tradition.

At the same time, Israel has bombed our naval vessels, killed our citizens, committed mass acts of industrial and intelligence espionage against us, and regularly does things we don't like, like expanding settlements in the West Bank. They do all of these things because it is in their interests to do so.

It is in our interests to continue to side with Israel, especially over Hamas. Hamas' interests and values are fundamentally at odds with ours. We can exist with, and benefit from, Israel. We can do neither with Hamas.

Mara I agree a lot with you. That said, some of the governments we are allied to are kinda shit. The Brits are cool, but they're kinda tied to us since we dismantled their empire. Same with the Japs, we smacked them so hard they turned... weird. Japan absolutely deserved it though. The West Germans were cool, until the commies took over their govt and made it kinda gay.

Israel though, I dunno. I used to be very pro Israel until the Epstein thing dropped. Kept digging and found out about all child sex trafficking and blackmail shit they've done to US citizens on US soil. Then there are some of the weird practices of the Jewish Orthodox faith and their views on non Jews. Recently though, the secret tunnels with stained mattresses and a toddler high table made me go wtf. That's not even touching upon the radical leftist political movements they've led/fomented/spearheaded in the USA, that have been detrimental on a social and societal level.

What I'm getting at, is I don't think Israel and their faith share as many core values as we think they do. Hell, Islam shares some of the values of Christianity, but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers would've bombed the shit out them (Tripoli?). I trust Israel as an ally, as much as I'd trust Saudi Arabia. One has nicer beaches and hotter ladies, but at their core they share a lot of ugly similarities.

Man I am on the left and ans anti Hamas as anyone here. There is more than just a left and right split on this. I see a lot of folks on the right bitching about American involvement in this absolute shitshow.

Remind me. Who do Rashida Talib, Ilhan Omar, and other liberal politicians, represent and actively cheer for? This is on the American left. Y'all imported a bunch of these people and are acting surprised they're acting like 3rd world savages. What's even more hilarious is that the progressive faction in the US is heavily Jewish.

Frog meet scorpion.

 

[Devildoc]

I hate it when you sound smarter than me...

Well, most of us are, so....

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

We all know what this country will look like once it becomes 25-30% muslim/arab muslim. Not looking forward to that, not gonna front.

I can live near Borough Park or S. Williamsburg Brooklyn, not going anywhere near Dearborn.

 

[AWP]

Well, most of us are, so....

Anyone have some aloe?

 

[Marauder06]

Mara I agree a lot with you. That said, some of the governments we are allied to are kinda shit. The Brits are cool, but they're kinda tied to us since we dismantled their empire. Same with the Japs, we smacked them so hard they turned... weird. Japan absolutely deserved it though. The West Germans were cool, until the commies took over their govt and made it kinda gay.

Israel though, I dunno. I used to be very pro Israel until the Epstein thing dropped. Kept digging and found out about all child sex trafficking and blackmail shit they've done to US citizens on US soil. Then there are some of the weird practices of the Jewish Orthodox faith and their views on non Jews. Recently though, the secret tunnels with stained mattresses and a toddler high table made me go wtf. That's not even touching upon the radical leftist political movements they've led/fomented/spearheaded in the USA, that have been detrimental on a social and societal level.

What I'm getting at, is I don't think Israel and their faith share as many core values as we think they do. Hell, Islam shares some of the values of Christianity, but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers would've bombed the shit out them (Tripoli?). I trust Israel as an ally, as much as I'd trust Saudi Arabia. One has nicer beaches and hotter ladies, but at their core they share a lot of ugly similarities.

I totally understand where you are coming from. Israel does a bunch of stuff to us that I don't like. But... it's the same stuff we do to pretty much everyone else in the world. I don't like it, but it's kind of an inherent part of the system.

With regard to the ultra-Orthodox: yep, that's a really interesting situation. I think I mentioned here on the site that one one of my early trips to Israel about 10 years ago we spoke with a radical ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jewish settler who lived in the West Bank, and later an uber-conservative radical Muslim who is from East Jerusalem. I was stunned by how much they had in common with each other: facial hair, what they ate, how they dressed, how they lived, their views on women, what should happen to the other side (complete eradication, or at least removal). There are major difference of course, but I was struck by the fact that they had far more in common with each other than they wanted to admit, and far more in common with each other than they do with people in the center, even the center on their own side. I thought I stumbled across some kind of brilliant International Relations insights until I researched it and found out it was called the Horseshoe Theory of Politics. There are places in Jerusalem that they tell us not to go... not because of Muslim violence but because of potential Jewish violence. The ultra-Orthodox are kind of their own thing.

I think the main difference is the difference in practice. As a nation, the way Israel practices Judaism, and its impact on our national interests, is far more in line with, and tolerable to, ours. It's not that way yet with the Palestinians, especially under Hamas.

With regard to the strong support of leftist policies... yes, as a group American Jews tend to be on the left. A sizeable portion are on the far left. more than one of my White Jewish grad school classmates told me they are not "White," they're Jewish, because they wanted to distance themselves from "Whiteness," and also you can't compete in the Woke Olympics if you're a White man. I didn't like that at all. But I think a lot of American Jews--even ones who aren't White--are realizing that a lot of people ostensibly on their side politically sure see them that way. And that makes it OK to go after them.

At the end of the day, I'm not pro-Israel. I've said it before. I'm pro-America. And right now, I think it's in our interests to be supportive of Israel, especially when the choice is between Israel and Hamas. If things change down the road and it's no longer in our interests to be so tight with Israel, I'll re-evaluate accordingly.

 

[Marauder06]

Well that seems pretty much as per SOP.

Yale students ditch first day of spring classes for ‘there is no back to school in Gaza’ walkout: report

 

[Gunz]

...At the end of the day, I'm not pro-Israel. I've said it before. I'm pro-America...

Yes, sir, me too...but I confess I've been a Israel/IDF supporter since the Six-Day War.

In '73 at the start of the Yom Kippur War, we were rousted out of our racks at 0200, told to pack seabags and issued weapons. If Russia had made a move, we would've gone. And I was actually motivated to go.

There's not much Israel has done over the years to change my mind. Admittedly, I'm a hawk and a hardliner when it comes to Israel's proactive defense, and I'm guilty of a vicarious enjoyment at some of their clandestine shenanigans.

 

[Steve1839]

In '73 at the start of the Yom Kippur War, we were rousted out of our racks at 0200, told to pack seabags and issued weapons. If Russia had made a move, we would've gone. And I was actually motivated to go.

I was in the Initial Readiness Company of the 82nd...got to spend a couple of nights sleeping on the apron at Green Ramp...what I've always wondered is why we would always get alerted for deployment at O-dark-early...never during the duty day...

 

[Gunz]

I was in the Initial Readiness Company of the 82nd...got to spend a couple of nights sleeping on the apron at Green Ramp...what I've always wondered is why we would always get alerted for deployment at O-dark-early...never during the duty day...

Yes, sir, hahaha, always in the middle of the night. We ended up sleeping
outside the barracks with our heads on our seabags waiting for the trucks to takes us to Morehead City where we’d board ships for the ME.

 

[Devildoc]

Yes, sir, hahaha, always in the middle of the night. We ended up sleeping
outside the barracks with our heads on our seabags waiting for the trucks to takes us to Morehead City where we’d board ships for the ME.

My mother, dead for almost 18 years now, used to tell the story of when my dad was deployed to the Dominican Republic in the early '60s with 8th Marines. Similar story, left for Morehead City in the middle of the night. That seems to be the way.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

I totally understand where you are coming from. Israel does a bunch of stuff to us that I don't like. But... it's the same stuff we do to pretty much everyone else in the world. I don't like it, but it's kind of an inherent part of the system.

With regard to the ultra-Orthodox: yep, that's a really interesting situation. I think I mentioned here on the site that one one of my early trips to Israel about 10 years ago we spoke with a radical ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jewish settler who lived in the West Bank, and later an uber-conservative radical Muslim who is from East Jerusalem. I was stunned by how much they had in common with each other: facial hair, what they ate, how they dressed, how they lived, their views on women, what should happen to the other side (complete eradication, or at least removal). There are major difference of course, but I was struck by the fact that they had far more in common with each other than they wanted to admit, and far more in common with each other than they do with people in the center, even the center on their own side. I thought I stumbled across some kind of brilliant International Relations insights until I researched it and found out it was called the Horseshoe Theory of Politics. There are places in Jerusalem that they tell us not to go... not because of Muslim violence but because of potential Jewish violence. The ultra-Orthodox are kind of their own thing.

I think the main difference is the difference in practice. As a nation, the way Israel practices Judaism, and its impact on our national interests, is far more in line with, and tolerable to, ours. It's not that way yet with the Palestinians, especially under Hamas.

With regard to the strong support of leftist policies... yes, as a group American Jews tend to be on the left. A sizeable portion are on the far left. more than one of my White Jewish grad school classmates told me they are not "White," they're Jewish, because they wanted to distance themselves from "Whiteness," and also you can't compete in the Woke Olympics if you're a White man. I didn't like that at all. But I think a lot of American Jews--even ones who aren't White--are realizing that a lot of people ostensibly on their side politically sure see them that way. And that makes it OK to go after them.

At the end of the day, I'm not pro-Israel. I've said it before. I'm pro-America. And right now, I think it's in our interests to be supportive of Israel, especially when the choice is between Israel and Hamas. If things change down the road and it's no longer in our interests to be so tight with Israel, I'll re-evaluate accordingly.

You have a much cooler head than I do. After current and past events, I no longer want to share the new world with either the Jewish or Islamic faiths. I'm done with Israel and I've been done with the Islamic world since the GWOT. If those two groups are gonna genocide each other that's on them. That said, the moment either of those two groups hurt Americans or our interests we should have razed both to the ground.

It feels like we have way too many enemies inside the wire, whispering into the ears of our leaders. I find it insane that we tolerate a bunch of 3rd world Islamic savages bringing their idiocy to the new world. Same goes for tolerating the dual citizen claims of the Israeli's or any other nation for that matter.

As for foreign intelligence agencies doing shit to Americans. Epstein and his Lolita Island group targeted lower and middle class American girls. They did that to gain leverage on our political leaders and subjected those girls to abuse and violence. Way I look at it, is how much American blood and treasure have these foreign interests wasted in their efforts to keep their fiefdoms afloat. How many wars have these people cost us?

As a nation we are rotting from infection because these people decided to tip the scale and start fires internally.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

We all know what this country will look like once it becomes 25-30% muslim/arab muslim. Not looking forward to that, not gonna front.

I can live near Borough Park or S. Williamsburg Brooklyn, not going anywhere near Dearborn.

I see house to house fighting and the razing of cities if it comes to that. It'll make the our old civil war look gentlemanly in comparison.

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

There man be a sissy revolution in the big cities of this country, but we still have plenty of men that would be willing to take to the streets once those HamAss mobs make it out of the metro areas.

Try that shit in a small town is not BS. Example? How many BLM/Antifa riots did we see in the deep south or exurbs of the NE and Midwest? Rest my case.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

There man be a sissy revolution in the big cities of this country, but we still have plenty of men that would be willing to take to the streets once those HamAss mobs make it out of the metro areas.

Try that shit in a small town is not BS. Example? How many BLM/Antifa riots did we see in the deep south or exurbs of the NE and Midwest? Rest my case.

That's the thing, what we're seeing with the Hamas protests are Iranian proxy's. The BLM and Antifa idiots proved that they could operate with impunity, now other nations states are following suit with their own useful idiots. Iran has taken a page out of the Chicom playbook and been effective in using soft power to run amok stateside.

What's worse is that these useful idiots are placed in our teaching and governing institutions. Said institutions also have political top cover. The average American isn't allowed to clean up the spill, let alone disinfect the source. This Islamist bullshit is also pushing us closer to the Israeli govt, which is no friend either.