Multiple Threat Engagment

[HOLLiS]

There was a recent shoot. The perp took on several officers, he was hit multiple times with 40 S&W (Gold dot bullets). Finally a Officer grabbed a AR15 and then shot the Perps feet out from under him. The perp was dead meat after that.


Improvise, especially when your target fails to cooperate.

 

[koz]

There was a recent shoot. The perp took on several officers, he was hit multiple times with 40 S&W (Gold dot bullets). Finally a Officer grabbed a AR15 and then shot the Perps feet out from under him. The perp was dead meat after that.


Improvise, especially when your target fails to cooperate.

Not really - The perp didn't die until he was enroute to the hospital. The officers had to fight with him to get him into cuffs.

I wasn't able to post the pdf file I have but mods I'll e-mail it to you if you can post it. Nevermind- found a link to the pdf file.

WARNING a bit of graphic photos in the morgue
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

 

[arizonaguide]

Seriously though, head shots while moving (one or both parties) are very difficult to reproduce, especially under stress and duress. You are talking about a target that is 7-10" in diameter (nominally) and moves us and down, side-to-side, and elliptically all at different times and all in varying degrees. This means you have to track the target thru half a cycle consecutively to reproduce the results.

Truth to this. Much less movement at the pelvic girdle, and much bigger target. Usually not protected by armor, and stops mobility. Worked well on pissed off charging Badasses. (of the Black and Grizzly variety).
:cool:

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Truth to this. Much less movement at the pelvic girdle, and much bigger target. Usually not protected by armor, and stops mobility. Worked well on pissed off charging Badasses. (of the Black and Grizzly variety).
:cool:

Pelvic shots are great for causing pain and/or collapsing the threat in some cases I also believe spinal column is a great area to target. But as is pointed out by Koz and the link he posted, both can be ineffective in stopping the threat. This brings me back to headshots, if you have the head as an open “exposed” target area you should shoot for the head.

WARNING a bit of graphic photos in the morgue
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

As SAWMAN pointed out, that’s not always possible due to versus ranges and situation/ environment. However it is the place where you will shut down the threat, thus making it the optimal target area.

If I am 15 yards or closer and have a clear exposed head, I am shooting at it.

 

[TheWookie]

Not really - The perp didn't die until he was enroute to the hospital. The officers had to fight with him to get him into cuffs.

I wasn't able to post the pdf file I have but mods I'll e-mail it to you if you can post it. Nevermind- found a link to the pdf file.

WARNING a bit of graphic photos in the morgue
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

Thanks for the link. Last bullet point on the last slide says it all,,, "shot placement is everything".....

 

[surgicalcric]

...This brings me back to headshots, if you have the head as an open “exposed” target area you should shoot for the head....

With the shot grouping (if thats what you would like to call it) or lack thereof on the assailant it appears the LEO's were doing good just to hit the guy where they did...

Look, we can sit here and continue to belabor this topic but each of us, that has exchanged lead on the two way range with a pistol, has our preferred method of engaging active targets: Left-Right/Right-Left, Far-Near/Near-Far, or Head/Pelvis/COM. At the end of the day it all comes down to shooter solution coupled with what is available at the time/place of the engagement.

Crip

 

[8'Duece]

Other than a few people here, who has really put their pistol to use in actual combat ??

I'm betting most have shot instinctively, not combatively, considering how much time they have down range and on an actual two way range.

Just sayin.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Here is some good info:

Larry Vickers
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/
Kyle Lamb
Paul Howe
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/training_for_the_real_fight.pdf
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/tactical_shooting_thoughts.pdf

 

[Cabbage Head]

Some damn good info here, thanks.

All that I can add is that you should take the limitations (ballistic/caliber) of the weapon/ammo you have in consideration. That coupled with the distance of the threat to you and work out a solution.

Having not BTDT, all I can add is theory. I will now sit back and listen to those that have.

 

[8'Duece]

Cpt Brian Chontosh, U.S. Marine Corp was the first to recieve the Navy Cross for his actions during combat in Iraq.

His story is interesting to say the least, regarding the use of the M9 pistol in that particular engagement.

If you can imagine shooting on the move, one handed, point shooting then you'll get the picture. He'll tell that it was about violence of action and survival. He didn't compete IDPA or IPSC nor was he professionaly trained by any high speed former SOF guys. Just target shooting and a twice a year qualification on a flat range.

IIRC he didn't even make a mag change, instead he opted to pick up one of the dead Haji's AK's and use that to clear the rest of the trench.

 

[HOLLiS]

Not really - The perp didn't die until he was enroute to the hospital. The officers had to fight with him to get him into cuffs.

I wasn't able to post the pdf file I have but mods I'll e-mail it to you if you can post it. Nevermind- found a link to the pdf file.

WARNING a bit of graphic photos in the morgue
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

Thanks, I knew the perp was dead meat, just wasn't sure when.

 

[WillBrink]

Fuck dude, remind me to skip your training day. Making head shots ALL THE TIME?? That is a tall order. I understand trying to ascertain a certain level of marksmanship but that seems a bit much. Making a head shot, even at 7 yards, while both parties are moving is VERY difficult. Add in multiple threats and it becomes exponentially harder.

That is my understanding and what I have been taught: making head shots on moving targets that are shooting back with a handgun will more often then not result in a miss for all but the highest level of training. CM hits being better then headshot misses. This being based on a civilian type short lived engagement using handguns with typical CCW load, which for me is 9 in the gun and an additional 8 in the mag, vs prolonged firefight with long guns, etc., which is another issue I am sure. Please correct if I'm wrong, but I would not have a high degree of confidence in making headshots on moving targets, while I was moving, while they were shooting at me. Perhaps with more training, courses, etc, I will have that skill level some day, but I don't have it now.

There are plenty of people here with real world shooting incidents. I'd be curious if any were multiple threats and how they engaged the targets.[/B]

I would too. More or less why I started the thread. :)

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I like debating shooting!

For competition I would shoot/ teach to shoot the drill. If it is multi targets spread out I would shoot controlled pairs (or however many shots it called for) per a target and then move to the next.

If it were real life and I was training someone for real life, I would reinforce the fact that 3 or 4 dudes are not going to line up directly in front of you such as in an 'El Presidente'. In reality you would more then likely be surrounded and or be cornered and would need to shoot each threat as fast as possible with 2 to 3 rounds and then quickly follow up with head shots. Personally I think a controlled pair is as fast (15 yards and in) as shooting just 1 shot.

I focus and train people to focus on headshots on the move and from all positions, b/c my belief is that all threats should be addressed with head shots. If you build in you mind that all you are shooting is headshots, you no longer have to worry about body armor drills, and follow up in capacitating shots…

I am going to quote my original unedited post (-bold) to clear up what I was/ am saying.

If you can’t shoot head shots 15 yards and in while moving left/right or forward/ back, then I highly recommend training your self to become more proficient in being able to do so. Its not going to happen over night and its not going to be easy, but it can and has been done.

As for gunfighting, I have heard many wild crazy stories and I am sure I have embellished a time or two in the bar. However most of the tier 1 guys I have spoken to and received training from have been very clear in what they have done and it has met up with my “two way range” experience even if it was with a rifle.

 

[hoepoe]

There is indeed a time for head shots, but i feel it's the exception rather than the rule.

Not because of any other reason that it's the expecially skilled that can do this all the time under duress.

Nice example of when it's a good idea Ter was shot 3 times in the head and once in what was the head. The details aren't shown here, but you'll get the idea.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxqDCg_gLT8&feature=related[/ame]

H

 

[arizonaguide]

For what it's worth, here in Arizona Center of Mass shots (on multiple assailents) are getting to be less effective, as many of the incidents involve multiple assailents wearing body armor, armed with rifles (AR/AK) and also dressed in tactical POLICE clothing, and well trained (scary shit!). More and more Deputies here are training to engage multiple targets, with Head and Pelvic shots...a much more difficult proposition!

But, many are also doing it more with an AR platform when the time comes to respond to a hot call. The pistol is only a last resort if caught by surprise, mostly prevented by situational awareness. And, I am speaking from inexperience, but I still believe I would still prefer a 12ga. w/00 buckshot for those close "pistol distance" house distance type encounters (or 7.62NATO to punch thru :), but I understand overpenetration...but then, going home at the end of the shift, etc).

I have to train for close pistol encounters (currently with a .38sp), because that's all I typically carry...and would most likely be a close in, self defense situation against a crackhead (or three) without a vest.
But, I still practice at less<7yd-to-contact distances on 3x5 cards at headshot height. Just in case.
Training for Most likely scenario...(and esp. with a .38sp headshots more effective).
5shot till reload...every one must count!

 

[Headshot]

I am going to quote my original unedited post (-bold) to clear up what I was/ am saying.

If you can’t shoot head shots 15 yards and in while moving left/right or forward/ back, then I highly recommend training your self to become more proficient in being able to do so. Its not going to happen over night and its not going to be easy, but it can and has been done.

As for gunfighting, I have heard many wild crazy stories and I am sure I have embellished a time or two in the bar. However most of the tier 1 guys I have spoken to and received training from have been very clear in what they have done and it has met up with my “two way range” experience even if it was with a rifle.

There's a reason why a Weaver stance is not so good while wearing armor, you can receive a shot in the armpit and get multiple vital organ hits versus using a modified Weaver which alleviates multiple damage and may still allow you to fight. This was taught to me by a highly trained Delta who used to train SWAT. Nothing about taking headshots was stressed. Most BG's are like the guy in a bar fight who swings hay makers as fast as he can put them out and if you get in the way of one your fucked, but one well placed shot to his liver and he's fucked. The body is a bigger target and therefore the best target, as it has multiple devastating shots available. A head shot is a Sniper's wet dream but very rarely is chosen over a killing body shot unless the head is the only thing exposed. I agree on training to hit a smaller target, but that smaller aiming point should be where the odds are waaaay in your favor, not where a movie director would place it. :2c: