Raid on President Trump's Home

[Marauder06]

I'm interested to observe whether the narrative on this situation changes over time.

The way I understand the current story is, former President Trump retained a number of documents after he left office, many of which were originally (and still may be) classified. The National Archives knew what they were, and, as custodians of such materials, wanted them back. President Trump returned some but kept others. The DOJ know he had those docs, and suggested he up the security for them, which he did.

Eventually, the DOJ decided that President Trump's possession of such documents constituted a national security threat so dire that they needed to raid his home to recover them, which they did. Acting on an "insider tip," they decided to send more than two dozen federal agents to his home to confiscate the material in question. Some of the material appears to be classified information, which President Trump claims to have declassified before he left office, some of which has to do with "nuclear weapons."

The timing, which included being during the time he was involved in case in NY, months before the midterms, and during the time when he was said to be mulling a potential 2024 presidential run, are all purely coincidental.

Is that about right?

 

[Kaldak]

I'm interested to observe whether the narrative on this situation changes over time.

The way I understand the current story is, former President Trump retained a number of documents after he left office, many of which were originally (and still may be) classified. The National Archives knew what they were, and, as custodians of such materials, wanted them back. President Trump returned some but kept others. The DOJ know he had those docs, and suggested he up the security for them, which he did.

Eventually, the DOJ decided that President Trump's possession of such documents constituted a national security threat so dire that they needed to raid his home to recover them, which they did. Acting on an "insider tip," they decided to send more than two dozen federal agents to his home to confiscate the material in question. Some of the material appears to be classified information, which President Trump claims to have declassified before he left office, some of which has to do with "nuclear weapons."

The timing, which included being during the time he was involved in case in NY, months before the midterms, and during the time when he was said to be mulling a potential 2024 presidential run, are all purely coincidental.

Is that about right?

Hit the nail perfectly on the head from my understanding. I also don't believe in coincidence.

Father was a federal 1811, so was raised with that belief. He also was never a big fan of the FBI; FBI were glory hounds who came in for an arrest, after other agencies did the leg work. His perspective, but he also retired just after 9/11, so things may be very different.

 

[Cookie_]

The DOJ know he had those docs, and suggested he up the security for them, which he did. <snip> Some of the material appears to be classified information, which President Trump claims to have declassified before he left office, some of which has to do with "nuclear weapons."

Both the Trump and DOJ narrative agree that Trump handed over some documents in June, and that the FBI made security recommendations for the "basement area" where some documents were still stored. After that, the narratives differ.

Trump narrative is that he was still working with the National Archives to turn over documents when he was raided.

FBI narrative is that the "insider tip" claimed Trump still had access to documents requested in June and others that he had not disclosed he had. That was the reason for the raid.

The narrative then gets murky again when talking about what documents he actually had, and if he was allowed to declassify them. For example, the president doesn't seem to have carte blanche to declassify Nuclear Information.

What about nuclear secrets?​

They are distinct, although for purposes of criminal law there is little substantive difference.
Congress has passed a law, the Atomic Energy Act, that imposes its own legal restrictions on mishandling information about how to build a nuclear bomb or enrich nuclear material. Such information is called “restricted data.” Legally, it is not the same thing as being “classified” under the executive order, although in everyday parlance people often refer to it as classified.

The law established a process for making decisions about downgrading such protections. For those involving military weapons, Congress mandated that the decision be made jointly by senior officials at the Energy and Defense Departments; if the two departments disagree about whether or not to do so, the law says the president makes the final determination. So at a minimum, those officials must be involved in any decision to downgrade nuclear weapons information into so-called formerly restricted data.
The Atomic Energy Act made it a crime for officials to disclose restricted data without authorization. But whether or not dangerous nuclear weapons information remains deemed to be restricted data, the Espionage Act separately makes its unauthorized retention or disclosure a crime.

The other thing that is interesting about this is the involvement of the The Espionage Act.

That law was initially enacted to combat spying. Prosecutions under it were relatively uncommon until the Justice Department ramped up its use under both Trump and his predecessor Barack Obama to go after leakers of national security information, including leaks to the news media.

The law's section cited as the basis for the warrant prohibits unauthorized possession of national defense information. It did not spell out the details about why investigators have reason to believe such a violation occurred.

The Justice Department has used the Espionage Act in high-profile cases in recent years including former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden, former military intelligence analyst Chelsea Manning and WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange <Snip>
Legal experts said Trump's claim that he had declassified the materials would not be a useful defense should he ever face charges.

"The statute does not even strictly require even that the information be classified so long as it is relating to the national defense," Northwestern University law professor Heidi Kitrosser said, referring to the Espionage Act.

The bolded statement is where this situation gets really dangerous politically. Even if Trump were to successfully argue that everything was declassified, he could still be charged under the Espionage Act.

---

The only way I can see this thing ending without a major shitstorm for our country is Trump having "no-shit big time geopolitical fallout" nuclear info;info being sold to the Saudis, documents that acknowledge that we know about the Israelis having nukes/helped them, locations/capabilities of our silos, etc.
Something so big and impossible to defend that even his diehards in government have to agree it was a legitimate danger.

If it's anything less than that, the DOJ will never convince a large portion of the country that it wasn't a political arrest, and I wouldn't blame those people for thinking that.

 

[Devildoc]

@Cookie_ , I think they could have 100% irrefutable proof that he was the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas in 63, and Trump's people would still support him. So I am not sure that the DOJ can provide anything that's going to sway a significant portion of the population that they are correct and that he is guilty. Especially because he has the resources to obfuscate in the media.

 

[Marauder06]

@Cookie_ , I think they could have 100% irrefutable proof that he was the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas in 63, and Trump's people would still support him. So I am not sure that the DOJ can provide anything that's going to sway a significant portion of the population that they are correct and that he is guilty. Especially because he has the resources to obfuscate in the media.

I think it's more likely that it would be another "far-right, white supremacist conspiracy theory" that it wasn't true, only for six months later for everyone to quietly admit that the whole thing was fabricated. Again.

But hey, he's the greatest threat to the US since... ever... so anything goes.

 

[Marauder06]

So... now there's investigating Trump's.... taint? lol

DOJ 'taint team' examining Trump Mar-a-Lago documents

 

[Devildoc]

So... now there's investigating Trump's.... taint? lol

DOJ 'taint team' examining Trump Mar-a-Lago documents

Good work if you can get it....

 

[Kraut783]

It's the worst name for what it does....

 

[Totentanz]

So... now there's investigating Trump's.... taint? lol

DOJ 'taint team' examining Trump Mar-a-Lago documents

So that’s be Stormy Daniels and who else…?

 

[Cookie_]

@Cookie_ , I think they could have 100% irrefutable proof that he was the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas in 63, and Trump's people would still support him. So I am not sure that the DOJ can provide anything that's going to sway a significant portion of the population that they are correct and that he is guilty. Especially because he has the resources to obfuscate in the media.

I agree, there's always going to be a group that is "ride or die" for him, much like any politican that has a high level of charisma.

I'm talking about having something of a level that even these GOP members calling to abolish the FBI (Gosar, Greene) or repeal the Espionage Act (Paul) would have to publicly acknowledge the severity of it.

I think it's more likely that it would be another "far-right, white supremacist conspiracy theory" that it wasn't true, only for six months later for everyone to quietly admit that the whole thing was fabricated. Again.

I think an outcome like that, where it's basically another "Russian Collusion" thing, is preferable to them arresting him on technical charges.

The single worst outcome I can see is trying to charge Trump for mishandling documents.
I know it's been mentioned on here that a bunch of us would like to see these rules enforced equally, but we all know it's different strokes for different folks.

I'm worried that trying to smash him for something non-major, like that dude taking pictures of his sub (back in 2015/2016?) would push us way to close to widespread political violence.

 

[Devildoc]

I agree, there's always going to be a group that is "ride or die" for him, much like any politican that has a high level of charisma.

I'm talking about having something of a level that even these GOP members calling to abolish the FBI (Gosar, Greene) or repeal the Espionage Act (Paul) would have to publicly acknowledge the severity of it.

I'm afraid it's going to become a political version of the True Scotsman argument. Even if they have that irrefutable proof, his "ride or die" base will say, "But if he's really guilty, then you need to provide X".

I do wish I would abolish the FBI, but I've had that argument for 30 years. We have had too many law enforcement agencies in too many intelligence agencies scattered and fractured with one hand knowing what the other is doing. Shut half of them down and consolidate all of them. But that's an argument for another thread.

 

[Devildoc]

Of course, information like this just lends credence if not credibility to it being a politically motivated move.

Biden White House facilitated DOJ's criminal probe against Trump, scuttled privilege claims: memos

 

[ThunderHorse]

Again, same FBI tried to derail his election. Same FBI where none of the people involved served time in prison. So if you're defending this, you're just supporting an organization that would put a bullet in your head wipe your existence. (Because they actually don't care about the rule of law or the oath they took)

For me this stopped being about 45 ages ago I'm done with him. Why? Because Biden is destroying our country. Next job? Win the mid terms to delay the remainder of his idiotic agenda.

So disband the FBI remains the only take.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Read the affidavit. It's a pretty stupid reason to raid the home of a former president. Basically this is a spat between him and the National Archives and someone was really effing dumb and got DOJ involved to compel him to kowtow to the National Archives.

It's not about omfg he'll sell Nuclear secrets to the Saudis or any of that nonsense. (If you thought so, you should rethink that because government upon successive government sucks that oil teet)

 

[Muppet]

Talking heads say there's proof. DOJ redacted 98 percent of the files. Oh, sure, I'll believe anything the God damn federal government says. They are totally trustworthy.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Talking heads say there's proof. DOJ redacted 98 percent of the files. Oh, sure, I'll believe anything the God damn federal government says. They are totally trustworthy.

 

[Marauder06]

"Apparently, this kind of thing is normal in investigations like this one."

Now A DOJ Task Force Investigates Trumps… Taint?​

 

[amlove21]

So in a timeline where literally everything gets leaked, you're telling me that there was actual malfeasance, they found what they were looking for, which completely justifies the affidavit... and that shit has stayed tightly under wraps. Not a peep.

Such incontrovertible truths were revealed at MAL that a completely complicit 24 hour news cycle that depends on Trump for ratings or dies has decided that this is the time for measured reporting.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Tangentially related. KJP calling "MAGA Republicans and Trump Supporters" extremists. She must be the person who writes all the irresponsible tweets from Biden's account.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565055401099509764

Didn't really know where to put this.

 

[Cookie_]

So in a timeline where literally everything gets leaked, you're telling me that there was actual malfeasance, they found what they were looking for, which completely justifies the affidavit... and that shit has stayed tightly under wraps. Not a peep.

You've gotta give it a couple months for one of the FBI counter Intel agents to retire and release their tell all book.

Look for Hands-Deep in his Taint: Investigating Trump's Mar-a-Lago Documents on book shelves and reading apps this holiday season.

Jokes aside, I am waiting for more leaks to the media. I bet within two weeks of this taint team finishing there start being stories about what this stuff was.